How important is physical strength and fitness?

[Zitterbacke]

A simple question. Any opinion?
Do you think physical strength has become less important compared to your experience with other martial arts you practiced before?
Do you train in addition to your bodyweight exercises that are done during Systema training?
How important is fitness/stamina?

Greets

 

[Jay Bell]

Less needed, but more trained

 

[Zitterbacke]

Less needed, but more trained

That doesn't make sense to me. Should I worry now?

 

[Jay Bell]

Meaning, the way Systema is put together biomechanically, the use of tense muscles is less then other arts I have worked with. Physical workouts, though, are a much stronger part of Systema then I've ever done before.

 

[Zitterbacke]

"Meaning, the way Systema is put together biomechanically, the use of tense muscles is less then other arts I have worked with."
That is what I was aiming at and it conveys an interesting question. Do I need to have a hard physical workout whereas my psychic and biomechanical knowledge is much greater than before? Some say that strength isn't important at all when you are good enough.

"Physical workouts, though, are a much stronger part of Systema then I've ever done before."
You mean stuff like pushups, squats, "crocodile walk" etc.? I would prefer to see them more as exercises that cover all attributes needed (the four pillars) and I wouldn't even say that their main emphasis is on pysical training. I know what a workout in Boxing looks like. This is pure physical training that needs strong willingness but that's all.

"Less needed. But more trained."
I provoked a simple answer with my simple question, didn't I?

 

[kage110]

Interesting question...

The training I do is not strictly Systema in that I am getting one-on-one tuition from a Russian who trained in the art for a very long time but is going his own way now. He is a very fit and strong person but physical training of the sort that seems prevalent in the Systema schools is totally lacking from our practice. At the moment we spend our whole training time working on sensitivity work (what might be called soft work) and there is never any emphasis on requiring any sort of strength to do the work.

I haven't lost any fitness training this way but I haven't gained strength or endurance either. I am much more free in my movements (which makes some people think I am more flexible, which I am not) and this enables me to take hits more easily (and also to hand them out!) and so my real world fitness - in a fighting sense - has not suffered.

If you are training to be a soldier or a sport fighter then a huge emphasis on fitness and strength is needed but I do wonder at the amount of time spent on fitness training drills in martial arts classes that are supposed to be teaching real life survival. If I get into any fight then I have made a mistake somewhere but if that fight lasts long enough for my fitness to matter then I have really made a mistake! :whip: I would rather spend the time training how to avoid making those sorts of mistakes.

Of course, beyond the fighting aspects fitness is important to your every day health and happiness and the exercises I have seen performed by Systema practitioners look like very, very good ways of becoming fitter and healthier. But a part of me thinks that stuff is for your own time or for down at the gym and when I go to a martial arts class I am not looking for circuit training....but that is my personal point of view... :asian:

 

[jellyman]

Physical excercises in Vlad's systema classes have mutliple purposes - increase fitness levels, increase coordination, increase body awareness and control, increase how much you are willing to push yourself (or 'heart'), increase your ability to fight while exhausted.

However, I also see these excercises as something that it is good to practice on one's own time as well.

Is it neccessary to be fit to use systema? I don't really think so. I think fitness can augment skill, which is useful in real life, but you should train with the assumption that whoever attacks you will be bigger than you. Now, having said all that, it's been hinted to me that to reach higher levels of skill, you must have mastery over the breath. I also notice that being fitter makes it easier for me to do the breathing excercises. Also, I hear tell you can live longer. So it is important for you as a person, but not for systema's effectiveness. Frankly, if someone tells me I have to be stronger than whoever to defend myself, that person's knowledge becomes suspect to me.

 

[NYCRonin]

Is it necessary to become physically stronger and more fit in order to utilize Systema methods for self protection? No -- it is your skill that ismost important...but you would most probably see an improvement in 'fitness' as a by product of the training.
Some of the exercises, though; are abit deceptive. It would seem that beathing pushups are possibly a strength developer..but they do more -- stressing the tendons, emphasising a shoulder rotational movement for going up and down aids proper punching form, it trains the will and breathing and helps one to lose the tension in the body that we often store up during the day -- allowing for a more delicate kinesic awareness of the movement of the body. Simple push up..it does alot.

On a larger view -- since 'the body' is the vehicle for one to express movement, a more fit vehicle will perform more effectively when called upon. Just depends on what you are focusing on when you are discussing fitness. When I began in Systema, I had come from over 30 years of the oriental/traditional western/eclectic schools of training. Weight training, for example; was a very strong point with me. Aerobics not so much -- for after all, I was training to hit hard and a real fight is not a marathon event, right?
(Wrong -- aerobic fitness is important..in 'the real', you may not go very long but you go really hard, and it taxes the breathing -- remember, this is my pre-systema training/fighting experience I am talking about above).
So, I came to systema as a relatively 'strong' guy -- and I looked the part of the m.a. fighter. The problem was...my 'strong' weight trained body had a constant high level of tension in the muscles -- a high level of 'tonus' -- as I still retained flexability, having trained to keep it. I found that this tonus was preventing me from developing the required awareness of my bodys free movement to make good progress in The System...so, as hard as it was to walk away from the iron, I wanted to 'do the work' so badly -- and I left the weight room alone for the better part of 2 years. I concentrated on the strange yet simple(?) exercises that Vlad was passing along. In that 2 years, my body awareness blossomed and grew considerably. I lost the constant tonus...and regained free movement. since then, I have returned to the iron, but train differently. Physical size and the weight pressed is not important now, the movement made 'under load' is...feeling it, varying it. I have also become a devotee to the use of the kettlebell and clubbell - finding them excellent additions to my overall fitness regimen.

I also run as well as my poor 50 year old knees permit -- for about 25 or 30 mins./3 or more times a week. Usually after work -- at about 1 in the morning, when the city streets have less traffic.
As I write this, it seems like the reader might think I do nothing but train. Far from it. I have just managed to fit it into my day comfortably -- it really is not so hard to do. Just substitute the training for some time in front of the TV -- hardly a sacrafice.

When do I find time to actually train Systema? Well, I teach twice a week and train also twice a week for myself...but that is not the limit to the actual training. Just moving throughout the day, in a 'proper' way, provides me with a great workout also. Opening doors are now done in a 'deflection' manner, moving through a crowd provides a lesson in movement every time I do so, as I find many ways to express what I have learned in the most mundane of lifes tasks.
Thanks to Vlad -- 'movement' is simply 'movement' now...'breathing' training is simply how I breath now, I retain a certain understanding of 'form' no matter what i seem to be doing....and I have (thankfully and finally) learned that 'relaxation' is a constant and normal way to 'be' -- all the time. So, in a way -- I am always training Systema, as I apply it in my daily life.

OK - did it again...a long post.
To sum it up, as above; since 'the body' is our vehicle for expressing Systema -- the more efficient the vehicle, the better the System's expression in your life...and the better you can respond 'when things are not good' and you might have to call upon that vehicle for some form of self protection or the protection of another.

 

[Furtry]

A simple question. Any opinion?
Do you think physical strength has become less important compared to your experience with other martial arts you practiced before?
Do you train in addition to your bodyweight exercises that are done during Systema training?
How important is fitness/stamina?

Greets

Physical strength is important but if you’re relying on it then you're doing something wrong. Your implication that a person needs to be strong when was studying other MAs is inaccurate IMO. All MAs at their epitome of execution are effortless. That being said, "It is good to know how to be strong."

I do train in addition to Systema, but I do it because I like the additional activities in which I partake. Not as a supplement to my Systema studies.

Fitness and stamina are important as they apply to every aspect of your life.
Being fit gives you the ability to sit through the boring meetings and be able to follow up with clients and close the deal, just because you had the stamina to wear them down. :supcool:

 

[TAZ]

Furty,

might I enquire what addiotnal training you do??


Apart from Weremoose hunting of course!


Taz

 

[Jackal]

You mean evading Weremoose hunters. :wink2:

Interesting that the training in Systema is more physically demanding than any art I've ever seen, yet the application of the System requires less strength and stamina than any other I've seen as well.

 

[Furtry]

Furty,

might I enquire what addiotnal training you do??


Apart from Weremoose hunting of course!


Taz

When it's not a full moon I like to go to a gym :supcool: . There I do dynamic exrcises for core streangth building, lots of balancing ball work with weights and verious hybrid movements. I also love to climb, as in walls .

 

[NYCRonin]

TAZ and Jackal -- I wonder if I will face the weremoose of Toronto this August - for during the camp, there will probably be a full moon...looks like I better bring a supply of 'silver bullets' (as in cans of COORS beer) in an attempt to keep the beast calm.

Seriously though - are you two really trying to get me killed? Buried under some fir tree -- 2 hours outside of Toronto proper. Wait a sec - TAZ - arent you planning on attending the camp? Perhaps we can work together on this avoidance of being 'weremoosed' to death. Beer, women, and keep movin - perhaps the moose too distracted to be bothered with us.

 

[Paul Genge]

Physical fitness is important for those moments when we get it wrong in a fight. They happen to everyone who has to use martial arts as a part of their proffession. In Vlad's own words, "You need to be able to get hold of someone and break them." This kind of work is not just about knowing where and how to grip, but having the strength to do it.

The great thing about the exercises in the system is that they build functional strength. The strength is not only applied when the body is in it's optimum position, but when it is not. This is an important skill to have.

The exercises are fundemental in developing form and breathing. Without these two areas of development we would get out of breath through fear and poor breath control or be either floppy or tense due to poor form.

Also the exercises are there as a form of treatment. For hip injuries Michael recommends squats with the feet parrallel and the back straight. The reason for this is that some forms of exercise and martial arts cause the hip joints to become overstretched. The joint them deforms. The squat tightens the joint and causes the deformed area on the joint to wear away.

I have alot of information on training drills and exercises on my website. http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

Paul Genge