Hooking

[Mider1985]

Does anyone know about Hooking? Its suppose to be a catch wrestling art. Its basically a move that gives no time to tap out. You can tear a persons tendons, or break there bones very easily according to Tony Cecchine with this stuff. Im wondering if anyone still teaches it. I contacted Tony Cecchine a while ago and asked who he recommended for teaching Catch Wrestling he told me to ask Erik Paulson since i wish to train in L.A. Anyway Erik Paulson recommended Gene Lebell and a man from the Inosanto Academy. BUT Gene Lebel doesnt teach anymore i think and recently i asked Tony Cecchine again if Gokor was a good teacher since he is Gene Lebells top student. He said or someone maybe who was handling emails said that Gokor is not into hooking, or catch, and that i should travel to Chicago if i wanted to learn Catch. I think that it was probably someone else answering the emails. I mean from Lou Thesz on youtube i heard that Billy Robinson is another man who was good at hooking, he mentioned Tony Cecchine, Billy Robindson and Karl Gotch. Sadly Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz have since passed on.

Thus im really confused. Because i know that Tony Cecchine was bad mouthed by the founder of scientificwrestling.com yet scientificwrestling.com does have men like Billy Robinson working for them. And i checked Erik Paulsons website lately and he also now has Catch Wrestling as one of his classes. Gene Lebel also recommends Erik Paulson.


So what i guess is even though i wrote so much all i really wanna know is WHO IN L.A. TEACHES CATCH WRESTLING. with Hooking included if you wonder what hooking is here's a link

 

[Mider1985]

So i know about how the founder of Scientific Wrestling is kinda a fraud according to Tony which is pretty lame since Tony Cecchine has no wish to bother anyone and has a serious back injury to boot. But im wondering if Erik Paulson does teach hooking or not. I know that on his CSW website he has Catch Wrestling in his class list. And i know that Billy Robinson works for scientific wrestling and Lou Thesz said he knew how to hook. Thus im really confused is scientific wrestling a school worth learning from I mean if you have no other altenative should you go to them to learn Catch Wrestling but should you go directly to Billy Robinson?

 

[Ybot]

Hooking is just old time wrestling lingo for what we call in BJJ submissions. Course they try to market it as "more brutal", but really that's all it is.

I can't believe the politics of "Catch as Catch Can" practitioners these days! They are all bad mouthing each other, and claiming each other as frauds! They are as bad or worse than a lot of other martial arts when talking lineage, and who is legit or not. From what all the modern guys who market stuff have questionable lineage... the question is do they teach good stuff, and once you wade through the mountain of propaganda and marketing gimmicks the answer is yes. Just be wary of anyone saying that their way is the best, or most devastating!

 

[Mider1985]

I dont think he said it was the best or most devestating nor did Billy Robinson im just wondering who teaches these HOOK manuevers. You look at a double wrist lock and you see a guy tapping out because your pulling his arm oppisite his head. it hurts so he taps out. Cecchine is doing it the other way not pulling the arm i think but just letting his body weight pull it TWORD the head. The rotator cuff i think is then TORN UP. He shows another lock and then says to bend the fourarm against your own four arm and it goes SNAP like a twig. Ive never seen these type of moves in BJJ or any other grappling art. But thats understandable because this isnt the kind of stuff you do in tournaments but on the other hand maybe the BJJ masters teach this kinda stuff in private? I know for sure they teach neck cranks those are VERY nasty.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not sure you're quite getting what "hooking" is, there Mider1985. Hooking is not a technical aspect, it is a specific type of approach to applying the technical aspects. Essenstially, as Ybot said, it's just old wrestling parlance for a submission approach. Any submission maneouvre could be considered a "hooking technique" if applied with the approach of causing pain and/or damage, as opposed to the approach of looking for pins and throws.

Back in the day, "hookers" would be the ones that would be used to "punish" someone.... if in a Carny-type wresting situation ("Last 5 minutes with The Monster and win big!"), then, if someone was doing well against the regular guys, a hooker may be brought out to put them back in place....

Really, the technical aspect is not much different to BJJ submissions, Jujutsu gyaku waza, and more, and can be found in any Catch-as-catch-can teachings... how you use it is what makes it hooking, though. I'm a little concerned as to why you're wanting to learn to inflict that amount of damage, though (your mentions of tearing up a rotor cuff, things "snapping like a twig"....). Remember, these guys had this approach as part of their living, being professional wrestlers (pre-dating WWE terminology here.... although they do keep up that side to a degree), their livelihoods depended on it. Not really a common thing unless that is your profession, and if you are focused on such damage as a self defence aspect, you're looking at it wrong.

 

[Steve]

Based on what I know, Chris and Ybot are spot on. There are some 'hooking' techniques that are specifically banned from BJJ competition. For example, you can't stick a couple of fingers in someone's mouth and fishhook them, you can't hook an ear or gouge an eye.

The hooker was the equivalent of a professor/coach in BJJ or a sensei in Judo. The guy teaching everyone else. If someone started winning, the hooker would come in and take the money back. Some hookers became known as Rippers, because they'd physically punish their opponents. It wasn't uncommon back in the day to be seriously injured, and deaths weren't rare.

Ultimately, the only real differences between BJJ, CACC Wrestling and Judo is strategy and emphasis. Catch wrestlers that I know focus on making an opponent pay for everything, and never ceding the top position. Every transition should hurt your opponent. BJJ works comfortably from top or bottom and there are techniques that are considered dickish by some. For example, knee on head control.

 

[Mider1985]

Not sure you're quite getting what "hooking" is, there Mider1985. Hooking is not a technical aspect, it is a specific type of approach to applying the technical aspects. Essenstially, as Ybot said, it's just old wrestling parlance for a submission approach. Any submission maneouvre could be considered a "hooking technique" if applied with the approach of causing pain and/or damage, as opposed to the approach of looking for pins and throws.

Back in the day, "hookers" would be the ones that would be used to "punish" someone.... if in a Carny-type wresting situation ("Last 5 minutes with The Monster and win big!"), then, if someone was doing well against the regular guys, a hooker may be brought out to put them back in place....

Really, the technical aspect is not much different to BJJ submissions, Jujutsu gyaku waza, and more, and can be found in any Catch-as-catch-can teachings... how you use it is what makes it hooking, though. I'm a little concerned as to why you're wanting to learn to inflict that amount of damage, though (your mentions of tearing up a rotor cuff, things "snapping like a twig"....). Remember, these guys had this approach as part of their living, being professional wrestlers (pre-dating WWE terminology here.... although they do keep up that side to a degree), their livelihoods depended on it. Not really a common thing unless that is your profession, and if you are focused on such damage as a self defence aspect, you're looking at it wrong.

Im disabled so dont worry. I only wish to learn martial arts as a self defense.

 

[lklawson]

I've republished a large number of antique wrestling manuals in the CaCC style and/or by CaCC super-stars of the day such as Gotch and Hackenschmidt.

Go read what these actual Hookers had to say about their art and its techniques, then compare it to what any modern instructor, particularly the "top names," have to say. If the two of them disagree, then ya gotta wonder about the modern guy.

If the modern guy is going on about a particular way to do a technique that doesn't appear at all in any of the old manuals, then you gotta wonder about where he got his info. Be wary of claims of "secret" variation.

Here's a link to the manuals. The PDF downloads are free for all of the antique books.

http://stores.lulu.com/lawson

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Oh, and second the gripe about the petty politics. Very aggravating.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk