Home Schoolers Become Criminals

MA-Caver

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Criminalizing Home Schoolers
By KRISTIN KLOBERDANZ/MODESTO Sat Mar 8, 9:45 AM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080308/us_time/criminalizinghomeschoolers
Parents of the approximately 200,000 home-schooled children in California are reeling from the possibility that they may have to shutter their classrooms - and go back to school themselves - if they want to continue teaching their own kids. On Feb. 28, Judge H. Walter Croskey of the Second District Court of Appeals in Los Angeles ruled that children ages six to 18 may be taught only by credentialed teachers in public or private schools - or at home by Mom and Dad, but only if they have a teaching degree. Citing state law that goes back to the early 1950s, Croskey declared that "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." Furthermore, the judge wrote, if instructors teach without credentials they will be subject to criminal action.

This news raised a furor among home schooling advocates, including government officials. "Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children," Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said in a statement today. "Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will." "It's kind of scary," says Julie Beth Lamb, an Oakdale, California, parent who, with no teaching credentials, has taught her four children for 15 years. "If that ruling is held up, this would make us one of the most restrictive states in the nation."
This is ridiculous. Saying that parents don't have the constitutional right to teach their own children is just stupid IMO. I'm glad to see Governor Schwarzenegger standing up to this for the home schoolers.
While this originated from a complaint of child abuse because the mother was un-credentialed and thus ordered "the children to attend public schools so that the teachers can spot evidence of abuse."
The center making the allegations are more concerned for the children in the case but it's being taken with a broad trowel over the entire state of California.

Like your thoughts and opinions on this?
 

newGuy12

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I'm surprised (in a good way) that Schwarzenegger at least stood up and said something. Besides, don't home schools sometimes bring in other people to teach as well? For example, if the children are to learn about computers, you have someone who works in the field to come in and give instruction?
 

arnisador

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I saw this! We homeschool and wouldn't want the state looking over our shoulders...but in fairness we know some homeschoolers who do need someone checking up on them.

But requiring a teaching certificate is a rather crude answer. I assume that nothing will happen--the federal position supporting this right is clear.
 

cstanley

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I know several families here who have home schooled their kids and these kids have attended first rate colleges and universities and done exceedingly well. One young woman in our neighborhood is a medical resident now and another is attending a major engineering school. These kids have the added qualities of being polite, devout, and having strong moral values. Sheesh! No wonder the Left doesn't want home schooling!
 

terryl965

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I home school as well and If I wanted somebodyelse to teach my childern they be in a public school, big daddy needs to leave us alone.
 

Kacey

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There are plenty of parents who are capable of home schooling their kids; there are also plenty who are not. Not because of a credential, but because some people cannot teach; some cannot teach their own children; some children require specialized assistance; etc. There are many reasons why a particular person may not be the right person to teach a particular child - some people recognize this, and some don't.

I have known some kids whose parents realized, in the course of homeschooling, that what they were doing wasn't enough, or appropriate, or for whatever reason wasn't meeting their kids' needs, and enrolled them in public or private schools. I have also know some parents who didn't realize - or ignored - that what they were providing their kids was not, for whatever reason, appropriate, as determined by mandatory testing every other year which showed the kids to be significantly delayed academically, and those parents were required to enroll their kids in public or private school. I have also known kids who were home schooled and did beautifully - and I think that, if the parent(s) proves to be an appropriate and effective teacher for the child(ren) in the home, certification is less important than result.

However, I also think that there needs to be some sort of oversight, not just because the children may be delayed academically (which could easily have a negative impact the rest of their lives), but also because such oversight is necessary in some cases to ensure the mental, physical, and emotional well-being of the children.
 

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I really think that the home schooling system is simply a parallel to the regular education system. Out of the home schooling system, you have everything from socially inept uneducated kids to polite, considerate, and social geniuses. Same with the public system, there are just as wide of a range of people. Some of the smartest and nicest people I've met have come from homeschools. But I have also met people that would have greatly benefitted from public schools. The reason for this, I feel, is that there are the same range of students in both systems...and the same range of teachers. I would submit that even the fact that you HAVE a teaching certificate, does not necessarily make you a good teacher. I know plenty of people with engineering degrees that are bad engineers....same thing.

Now here's something that I DON'T feel is equal. In a public school, if you can move ahead and are smart enough, it doesn't matter, you are held back and required to go at the pace of the other students. You are subjected to horrible teachers who don't care about your development, tests designed for your failure rather than honest assessment, disruptive other students, forced schedules and a myriad of other cons, too many to list. In a home schooled environment, you learn as fast as you can, your tests are based on your understanding, your teacher CARES about you and your development....In general, it is a much better learning environment. The major disadvantages to home schooling involved the lack of interaction with other kids and certain large group programs, such as music, phys ed, etc.......but then, there are plenty of programs to make up for that.
 

arnisador

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I have known some kids whose parents realized, in the course of homeschooling, that what they were doing wasn't enough, or appropriate, or for whatever reason wasn't meeting their kids' needs, and enrolled them in public or private schools

...in many cases, part-time for just a subject or two. We see a lot of that--homeschoolers taking a couple of public school classes, or taking online or community college courses, in areas where they need specialized teaching (commonly sciences, music, foreign language, etc.).

However, I also think that there needs to be some sort of oversight, not just because the children may be delayed academically (which could easily have a negative impact the rest of their lives), but also because such oversight is necessary in some cases to ensure the mental, physical, and emotional well-being of the children.

I think the welfare concern is probably not as big an issue as people think--one hears about the exceptional, extreme cases in the news of course. But we have been surprised by how little oversight there is. My son has been accepted at both of our state research universities with his tuition waived so he is doing fine, but while we're glad not to have the state on our backs it always seems like they should be a bit more concerned about the academics.
 

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I find it interesting that the government tries so hard to be the watchdogs for the child's "best interest." Ensuring that the parents aren't abusing them, ensuring that they get the best education, etc....but it seems to me that they are MORE at risk in a public school. How many times do you hear about a home school shooting? There are definately cases of parental abuse, but really - does home schooling change that? If you beat your kids, you're going to beat them whether they are going to school at home or not.

Personally, when I was in middle school, I was beaten up every day. My life was miserable every day because of how other kids treated me. I hated everything about school and would have given anything to get away from those people. This is not an uncommon problem...the "bullying" problem is coming more and more into the light as kids get more brutal and other kids start snapping....and on top of that, the administration isnt' even allowed to DO anything about the jerks.


So how is it better to restrict parents from home schooling?
 

Makalakumu

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Kacey - I would challenge you to define delayed. This term is bandied about by the educational institution and I think that people really need to think about how its being defined.

I would define it as acheivement on a standardized test. The norms that the test encompasses determine who is advanced, average, or delayed.

Unfortunately, the creation of these norms is based off of what is being done in the public schools. Thus, I would say that the term delayed is a form of circular reasoning because the debate has been predefined.

With that being said, I have met so many kids who are "delayed" but are absolutely brilliant. Think Howard Gardner's Domains.

There is no real measure for all of these yet. Some people have attempted to craft what is known as a "G score" but they are no where close to accomplishing this, IMHO.

With that being said, how can we really say if a homeschooler is "delayed" or not? Is government mandated and normed remediation the answer?
 

Kacey

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Kacey - I would challenge you to define delayed. This term is bandied about by the educational institution and I think that people really need to think about how its being defined.

Delayed, in the case of the students I am thinking of, means 6th grade students who cannot read at a 2nd grade level; 7th grade students who cannot add and subtract 3-digit numbers without regrouping; 7th grade students who cannot spell their own last names; a 16 year old who was withdrawn to be "home schooled" (read "baby sitter") during 7th grade who came back for special education assessment so she could enroll in an alternative high school and get her diploma... I could go on. Are they the extreme end of what I see? Yes. I also see a student that I staffed out of special education last year; he had been home-schooled until his mother realized that he was not progressing at the same rate his older brother had, and she recognized that something was going on that she could not deal with. She brought him to the elementary school he would otherwise have been attending and had him assessed for special education; he qualified and was placed. He received additional services in reading, written language, and math; he was staffed out of special education last year because, at his triennial review, his skills had not only caught up with his peers, but surpassed them. By his own request, he remains in public school; he prefers to learn with his peers than his siblings, and his mother respects that choice.

Are there kids for whom alternate schooling is appropriate? Of course there are; I never said there wasn't. But neither does that mean that there are not students for whom traditional schooling is appropriate. One does not preclude the other. My parents are both educated; my father holds 5 advanced degrees in English and Library Science. Nonetheless, he was a rotten teacher for anyone under college level, and my mother (despite all evidence to the contrary) consistently refers to herself as stupid and incapable in comparison to the rest the immediate family - and steadfastly refused to help with any homework other than editing papers past the time my sister and I each entered 5th grade, because she didn't feel she was capable.... and in all honesty, they'd have made rotten teachers for either of us, despite college educations and a strong desire to see us both attain college educations ourselves. My sister and I both graduated from the public school system; we both have Master's degrees; I have been a teacher for 15 years - and if I ever do have children, it's highly unlikely I would choose to home school them. That's my preference; you have yours.
 

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Like your thoughts and opinions on this?

This happens because public schools have become more of a big government union jobs program. The more children that can be forced into the public school systems (by criminalizing homeschooling or via a war on charter or private schools) and the smaller you can make classroom sizes, the more jobs that are created in 'educational' fiefdoms. With the growth in jobs the more people they have to contribute to the big union cauffers that can be used to influence politicians and and their will upon the people with laws like this.
 

shesulsa

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Besides, don't home schools sometimes bring in other people to teach as well? For example, if the children are to learn about computers, you have someone who works in the field to come in and give instruction?
There are entire homeschooling networks which have grown immensely and coordinated better with the advent of the internet. The kids who seem to to do the very best with homeschooling are involved in a network of homeschooled children who regularly meet, parents with specialized teaching skills for science, higher math, foreign language, extracurricular activities, etcetera.

But I think it's worth at least noting that these children do better than most isolated homeschooled children because they network, meet regularly and have access to specialized learning in their network.

...in many cases, part-time for just a subject or two. We see a lot of that--homeschoolers taking a couple of public school classes, or taking online or community college courses, in areas where they need specialized teaching (commonly sciences, music, foreign language, etc.).
QED.


I think the welfare concern is probably not as big an issue as people think--one hears about the exceptional, extreme cases in the news of course. But we have been surprised by how little oversight there is. My son has been accepted at both of our state research universities with his tuition waived so he is doing fine, but while we're glad not to have the state on our backs it always seems like they should be a bit more concerned about the academics.
Ah but you are not only an educator, you are a *college professor* hence you have a deep and lengthy understanding of the learning process and how it relates to the developmental process and there *is* something to be said for that.

As to the educational welfare of these kids, there are some states who require homeschooled children to pass a grade-level test appropriate for their age and if they fail over a certain period of time they can be mandated to public school education or proof of private school education. The only problem I have with this is the whole nature of the error of standardized testing and how it's not exactly applicable to the "real world" work scenario for the most part.

Kacey - I would challenge you to define delayed. This term is bandied about by the educational institution and I think that people really need to think about how its being defined.

I would define it as acheivement on a standardized test. The norms that the test encompasses determine who is advanced, average, or delayed.
I wouldn't. I'd define it as a child grades behind in more than one subject and hindered in other fields by said imbalance. Standardized tests are round hole tests for a society of pegs which are round, square, triangular, polygonal (don't have the time to look up the proper word for these - cylindrical, etc) and many other shapes. They are not the educational benchmark the Every Child Left Behind Act tried to make them.

Unfortunately, the creation of these norms is based off of what is being done in the public schools. Thus, I would say that the term delayed is a form of circular reasoning because the debate has been predefined.

With that being said, I have met so many kids who are "delayed" but are absolutely brilliant. Think Howard Gardner's Domains.

There is no real measure for all of these yet. Some people have attempted to craft what is known as a "G score" but they are no where close to accomplishing this, IMHO.

With that being said, how can we really say if a homeschooler is "delayed" or not? Is government mandated and normed remediation the answer?
To me, if a homeschooled child cannot function socially, educationally nor professionally in the real world they are "delayed" or at least not shaped well. Nod, however, to the link and cognitive learning - each person *is* different and there are plenty of people who would be deemed socially delayed who are educationally and professionally successful. The uniqueness in society is being devalued and that's wrong - something that shouldn't be sacrificed in the name of standardized education.

I wonder how many of us here on MT would pass our state-prepared standardized tests? (looks at the WASL prep pages for science and shudders)

Delayed, in the case of the students I am thinking of, means 6th grade students who cannot read at a 2nd grade level; 7th grade students who cannot add and subtract 3-digit numbers without regrouping; 7th grade students who cannot spell their own last names; a 16 year old who was withdrawn to be "home schooled" (read "baby sitter") during 7th grade who came back for special education assessment so she could enroll in an alternative high school and get her diploma... I could go on. Are they the extreme end of what I see? Yes. I also see a student that I staffed out of special education last year; he had been home-schooled until his mother realized that he was not progressing at the same rate his older brother had, and she recognized that something was going on that she could not deal with. She brought him to the elementary school he would otherwise have been attending and had him assessed for special education; he qualified and was placed. He received additional services in reading, written language, and math; he was staffed out of special education last year because, at his triennial review, his skills had not only caught up with his peers, but surpassed them. By his own request, he remains in public school; he prefers to learn with his peers than his siblings, and his mother respects that choice.

Are there kids for whom alternate schooling is appropriate? Of course there are; I never said there wasn't. But neither does that mean that there are not students for whom traditional schooling is appropriate. One does not preclude the other. My parents are both educated; my father holds 5 advanced degrees in English and Library Science. Nonetheless, he was a rotten teacher for anyone under college level, and my mother (despite all evidence to the contrary) consistently refers to herself as stupid and incapable in comparison to the rest the immediate family - and steadfastly refused to help with any homework other than editing papers past the time my sister and I each entered 5th grade, because she didn't feel she was capable.... and in all honesty, they'd have made rotten teachers for either of us, despite college educations and a strong desire to see us both attain college educations ourselves. My sister and I both graduated from the public school system; we both have Master's degrees; I have been a teacher for 15 years - and if I ever do have children, it's highly unlikely I would choose to home school them. That's my preference; you have yours.
Nice post.

The main problem with many homeschooled children is they are never grouped - never networked - and real life gets in the way of teaching and learning. It's easy to become lackadaisical with home learning structure.

I used to assist another black belt in teaching children and she still teaches one of two homeschooled brothers. They are quite intelligent, but there is absolutely no doubt they are socially separate and their physical fitness and development is lacking. I'm sure they will become good engineers, but emotionally they will likely be wrecks. Why is this important? Because we all, during development, have various stages where we seek the norm - we must fit in. Now there are a few exceptions to this - children who are more comfortable being different and in a healthy way - but they are, indeed, few. It is not a bad thing and requires guidance.

Moreover, what you resist persists. When these young men find adulthood, they will be met with many social challenges they may not be able to face. I worry for them. I liken it to sending them into the woods with no knowledge of survival skills.

Like anything, if homeschooling is done right - dedicated, purposeful, well-rounded and not neglected - it can be a wonderful thing. It just is *NOT* for everyone.
 

Makalakumu

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Delayed, in the case of the students I am thinking of, means 6th grade students who cannot read at a 2nd grade level; 7th grade students who cannot add and subtract 3-digit numbers without regrouping; 7th grade students who cannot spell their own last names; a 16 year old who was withdrawn to be "home schooled" (read "baby sitter") during 7th grade who came back for special education assessment so she could enroll in an alternative high school and get her diploma... I could go on. Are they the extreme end of what I see? Yes. I also see a student that I staffed out of special education last year; he had been home-schooled until his mother realized that he was not progressing at the same rate his older brother had, and she recognized that something was going on that she could not deal with. She brought him to the elementary school he would otherwise have been attending and had him assessed for special education; he qualified and was placed. He received additional services in reading, written language, and math; he was staffed out of special education last year because, at his triennial review, his skills had not only caught up with his peers, but surpassed them. By his own request, he remains in public school; he prefers to learn with his peers than his siblings, and his mother respects that choice.

Have you ever met a kid who wasn't "good" at anything?

Are there kids for whom alternate schooling is appropriate? Of course there are; I never said there wasn't. But neither does that mean that there are not students for whom traditional schooling is appropriate. One does not preclude the other. My parents are both educated; my father holds 5 advanced degrees in English and Library Science. Nonetheless, he was a rotten teacher for anyone under college level, and my mother (despite all evidence to the contrary) consistently refers to herself as stupid and incapable in comparison to the rest the immediate family - and steadfastly refused to help with any homework other than editing papers past the time my sister and I each entered 5th grade, because she didn't feel she was capable.... and in all honesty, they'd have made rotten teachers for either of us, despite college educations and a strong desire to see us both attain college educations ourselves. My sister and I both graduated from the public school system; we both have Master's degrees; I have been a teacher for 15 years - and if I ever do have children, it's highly unlikely I would choose to home school them. That's my preference; you have yours.

The above is a great argument for why there should be as many options for children as we can possibly muster as a society. The part I bolded is the most important part. Often, we just don't have programs to meet our preferences. This, IMHO, has to change somehow.
 

Kacey

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Have you ever met a kid who wasn't "good" at anything?

Have I ever met a child who was poor at all academic tasks? Yes, I have - I am, after all, a special education teacher, and among my students I have several who are developmentally delayed for a variety of reason. Have I ever met a student who had no strengths? No; every child has a strength, if only relative, in something - even Eliab, who is currently attending my school in the severe needs program, who has severe cerebral palsy (virtually no motor control), has a permanent tracheotomy, who eats through a permanent stomach tube (due to choking problems, his esophagus was permanently sealed surgically), who has no language (no expressive, anyway, we're not sure about what he understands, because he can't demonstrate much), who the severe needs teacher is trying to teach to differentiate between a pair of pictures using eye motions (and this boy is in 6th grade, remember) - even he has his strengths, relative to his other skills. They are not much - mostly smiling when the occupational therapist takes him out of his chair and does his muscle stretching exercises - but that's what he's got.

As far as children with less severe disabilities, of course they all have something they're good at - some are athletes, some are skilled at social interaction, some have artistic talent, and so on, in some degree or other - it all depends on the child. To think otherwise is detrimental to the children.

The above is a great argument for why there should be as many options for children as we can possibly muster as a society. The part I bolded is the most important part. Often, we just don't have programs to meet our preferences. This, IMHO, has to change somehow.

As I said, I have no problem with options being available:
Are there kids for whom alternate schooling is appropriate? Of course there are; I never said there wasn't. But neither does that mean that there are not students for whom traditional schooling is appropriate.
But simply because one option does not work for all students, does not mean that that option should be trashed in favor of another option. The more options there are, the greater the chances that the particular option a student needs will be available when and where the student can access it. I would no more advocate banning home schooling than I would advocate banning public or private schooling... which is what it appears you are leading up to: disbanding the public education system. Is it flawed? Yes, it is. Does it need renovation? Yes, it does. But for many students, it's the only option available, for reasons that have been hashed and rehashed enough times that I don't care to rehash them again.
 

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I find it interesting that the government tries so hard to be the watchdogs for the child's "best interest." Ensuring that the parents aren't abusing them, ensuring that they get the best education, etc....but it seems to me that they are MORE at risk in a public school. How many times do you hear about a home school shooting?
There was that guy who went around in CO who shot up two churches.
 

Makalakumu

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I don't want to ban public education. I think the model works for many many kids. It also fails many many kids because the institution is just too big in order to specialize for their particular needs.

What I'm saying is that I think we need to find a way for EVERY option to be accessed for any child that needs it. We need to change the system so that one option isn't favored above another option especially if that option is not proving to be successful for that child.

The problem is that even saying this pretty much gaurentees that the current system would change. At the very least, the enrollment at current schools would shrink as many parents explored other options for educating their children. Meanwhile new schools with more specific charters and goals would spring up everywhere.

What we, as educators and as a society, need to realize is that this need not be a bad thing.

Homeschooling, unschooling, Waldorf, Montessori, Sudbury, all of these approaches are going to be viable for certain subsets of children. More viable that what is offered in the public schools. Why should the government favor one approach that is failing over one that could succeed?
 

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