Holes in kenpo

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kenpo12

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I hear alot of people talk about "holes" in kenpo. Kenpo doesn't have ground fighting, grappling, sufficient weapons techniques blah, blah, blah. I personally don't think there are any holes in kenpo, just holes in the minds of the practitioners and/or training. But if I were to find "holes" I would say it's in the way people train not the system.
Clyde talks about the spirit of the attack alot and he's right. If someone just sticks there hand out there, it's not a punch. Lord knows I've been nailed in the head for not blocking William properly but I learned pretty quickly to get the block up there properly. How many people train the attacks as opposed to just training the defenses? There are alot of techniques addressed in the attacks that are good techniques and if not trained properly the defender will never learn how to defend against them properly. How many people train to put on headlocks, figure four armlocks, bear hugs, etc?

Just curious,

Matt
 

someguy

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There are holes. There are holes in every thing. Nothing A human can make will be with out holes. Kenpo is NOT perfect. No MA is. This may annoy people to say this especialy on a kenpo board but to bad.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Kenpo12:

What Clyde told you is exactly correct. However, what Someguy said in reply to your post is also correct. Kenpo is an incredibly comprehensive, deep, and complex system. You can dedicate your life to it and never learn everything it has to offer.

There is a danger in that path. The danger is that your reality becomes defined within your dojo and you ignore what goes on in the rest of the martial arts world.

You are at a great school with great teachers. One of the best in the world actually. Contnue to absorb everything you can from them. At some point in the future, remember to raise your head and look around to make sure you are not missing anything else in the world.
 

pete

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Taken from a translation of the Tao Te Ching:

"Open the door and frame the window,
It is nothing (the hole) that is the essense of usefulness"

Anybody see the holes as a good thing.. vive l' holes!
 
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kenpo12

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I do see the "holes" as good thing. That's why every space in the web of knowlege is not filled, but that's not quite my point. What I'm getting at with my question is why do so many people feel they need to go elsewhere to fill holes as opposed to just training properly and filling in the "holes" that way.
I'm in no way saying that you can't study other arts but it shouldn't be done to fill in holes as much as it should be done just to get some perspective.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Kenpo12:

The argument is similar to "why travel abroad when you haven't seen all of the USA yet?" When you travel abroad you see things that just don't exist in the USA--things you never dreamed could exist. International travel will greatly increase your knowledge, provide additional wisdom into human nature and enable you to exprience your time in the USA with a broader perspective.

After a period of time you may experience a diminishing return in your Kenpo study. If that time comes, you may want to do other things. Those other things might be family, travel, more schooling, other sports, or maybe even another martial art. You may discover that there is more to life (and to the martial arts) than Kenpo and that there is more to the world than what you are experiencing inside your dojo. You may discover that your prior experience was incomplete and that there are questions you never dreamed could be asked. That may spark a whole new journey in your life that could be as rewarding as your Kenpo journey.
 
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kenpo12

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Old Fat Kenpoka,

Your analogy fits what I'm saying. I agree with traveling abroad to get a better perspective, but I always come back home. Once in awhile during those travels people find a place they would rather live but in most cases traveling around and seeing other things give you a better perspective of what you currently doing. For me personally I'm always going to be a kenpo person, that is my root system. I like to dabble with other systems or people in other systems but all that does is help me in strengthening my kenpo.
 

MJS

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Originally posted by kenpo12
Old Fat Kenpoka,

Your analogy fits what I'm saying. I agree with traveling abroad to get a better perspective, but I always come back home. Once in awhile during those travels people find a place they would rather live but in most cases traveling around and seeing other things give you a better perspective of what you currently doing. For me personally I'm always going to be a kenpo person, that is my root system. I like to dabble with other systems or people in other systems but all that does is help me in strengthening my kenpo.

Very good post! Your last statement really stands out though! Again, this is something that I have said, and have taken soooo much crap for, but here it is again. Only difference, is that someone else is saying the EXACT same thing. I have never said to abandon Kenpo. After all, its my base art as well. I have said many times to take ideas, methods, concepts, etc. from other systems and add them to the Kenpo, to at the very least, make YOUR Kenpo better!

Mike
 

Seig

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There is a proverb:
If the facts do not suport your proposal,
get rid of the facts.





I am happy to know that 20 years after I first heard that proverb it is still true.:disgust:
 

MJS

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Originally posted by Seig
There is a proverb:
If the facts do not suport your proposal,
get rid of the facts.





I am happy to know that 20 years after I first heard that proverb it is still true.:disgust:

Yes, that is very true. The interesting thing here though, is that I'm not the only one who talks about the 'holes', rather just the only one who takes heat for it. Oh well!

Again, I could see if I was the only one saying this, but the fact of the matter is, is that there are MANY who preach the same thing.

Mike
 
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MisterMike

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<thick sarcasm>But if it isn't in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo or Books 1-5, it doesn't exist</thick sarcasm> ..... :shrug:
 
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Kenpo Yahoo

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<thick sarcasm>But if it isn't in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo or Books 1-5, it doesn't exist</thick sarcasm> .....

Here's my problem with you guys. I'm a kenpo guy, I love kenpo, but kenpo has it's limitations. Kenpo club/stick work sucks compared to FMA club/stickwork. Sure it exists in kenpo but it isn't really developed beyond the realm of forms and even then it is extraordinarily primitive compared to what I've seen. Kenpo again doesn't even teach a knife curriculum outside of specialized circles like Mike Picks group or Paul Mills group (which has also developed a multi-level club curriculum).

The same with groundfighting, just because you tried to convert a couple of standing techniques into ground techniques doesn't mean you have a ground system or that you are even capable of executing this correctly. This just means you are trying to fill in a blank with the most readily available material which may not always be the best suited.

You sneer that we only look at the Encyclopedia or the Infinite Insights for material to base our observations. I base my observations on what is happening in a majority of kenpo schools. Most of the schools who are teaching any groundfighting have received, at the very least, some outside instruction in the matter.

Why should you have to wait to learn these things on your own, when someone with a dedicated background to a particular subject can show you more in one day than you could teach yourself in one year?

What if all physicists were like this, "well everything is essentially physics so I should be able to build this entire 777 airplane without the help of anyone else." Well of course he's right, but don't you think it's more efficient to get people who build aircraft engines, set-up the electrical systems, fuel lines, or landing gear on a routine basis rather than waste all your time looking for answers that are readily available to anyone willing to listen. Maybe that's just me, but why the hell should I wait 20 years to be introduced and taught insufficient material when I can learn good material today that I can start using today?

You guys just don't get it. It's not about kenpo's holes as someone stated, that just seems to be the wording that everyone decided to use to go along with the original post. What it is though, is about developing aspects of an art that were not previously developed either by your instructor or association, this includes EPAK and SGM Ed Parker. Do you truly believe that Mr. Parker developed his curriculum as far as he was going to? Especially when we all know that he was planning a major system overhaul at the time of his death. If you don't see this, then there is no point to everyone continuing to argue about this. You guys can go back to your little bubbles and we will all keep doing what we are all already doing.
 

Michael Billings

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... I get tired of your alienating people just about every post. Whether you are right or wrong is not the issue. Even when I want to agree with you, I have difficulty doing it when your condesending tone and implied insults just piss me off.

Is it just me? I know that this thread addresses "Holes in Kenpo"; I consider you a good contributer, albeit with a stance different from my own. You are trying ... or maybe not trying, but effectively alienating me with comments that I do not take personally, but do find insulting to others. This post just hit me wrong, when essentially there are parts I intrinsically agree with.

It is not the Art, but the teacher. Your observations about Mr. Parker are probably accurate, and Kenpo would have continued to grow. Kenpo guys would learn BJJ and be competing with it, but under his direction, the best, the logical parts would probably, eventually have come into the system. Mr. Parker learned every day he was alive, and the rest of us would do well to seek this same value. This is not a statement about Mr. Parker, so much as it is a compliment to those who learned HOW to learn from him. Challenge was a part of it, but only a part, solutions and answers were always being sought, whatever the venue.

-Michael
 
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Shiatsu

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You know, I tend to agree with Kenpo yahoo on this one. A lot of people are stuck in the "my way is the only way syndrome", if you don't believe it look at the posts from all the EPAK is the only way people.

Mr. Parker would have never quit improvising, to think that he would have is foolish.

To think that no one can take you to the ground is foolish, to think that you will go into a fight or altercation and you are to damn good to get hit, you are foolish.

If it works it is right, if it doesn't it is wrong.

Mr. Parker stated " No matter how good of a swimmer you are, if you swim in a pool of sharks you are bound to get bit".
 

arnisador

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I like the analogy to physicists and engineers.

Especially when we all know that he was planning a major system overhaul at the time of his death.

I didn't know this! Do we know what was intended in this overhaul?
 
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MisterMike

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You sneer that we only look at the Encyclopedia or the Infinite Insights for material to base our observations. I base my observations on what is happening in a majority of kenpo schools. Most of the schools who are teaching any groundfighting have received, at the very least, some outside instruction in the matter.

KY,

It was a sacrastic "sneer" at those who do not look beyond the books. I'm on your side man...chill.

If there's any holes, they can be filled by looking at other systems. Just check my profile. I'm FOR crosstraining.
 
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kenpo12

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See, it's this Black and White view everyone has that cracks me up. Why can't American Kenpo exist beyond the written cirriculum? Just because a specific scenerio doesn't exist within the written techniques doesn't mean kenpo doesn't deal with it. Kenpo goes far beyond the written techiques. The techniques are just written examples so that you can internalize the art, but once you've reached a certain level of proficency the curriculum does away with itself. I'm not saying you can't go learn some BJJ, Systema, Escrima or what have you but if you look at the techniques of these other systems you will begin to see that they are kenpo as well. You don't have to agree with me, but honestly if you can't see that it's all just kenpo maybe you're not looking at kenpo the way you should be.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Kenpo12:

I took a cooking class this summer. We made a different dinner every week for several weeks. After just a couple of classes, it became clear to me that hey this cooking stuff -- it's really just Kenpo! After this realization I was able to cancel the angle of disturbance and the soufle came out perfectly!

Come on, it's not all just Kenpo! There is knowledge, wisdom, theory, technique, and basic reality that is outside of the bounds of Kenpo principles, techniques, and methods. This is true even though Mr. Tatum, Clyde, and the rest of the crew in Pasadena may be teaching their students otherwise. .
 
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MisterMike

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That may be true to a point, for systems that look like Kenpo. But I don't think techniques from arts like Aikido fit that mold. Sometimes the Kenpo Pride gets a hold of the best of us. :rolleyes:
 

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