help with chinese triple hand

[shaolinDave]

I started a thread on the Kempo forum, but on the suggestion of sifu Adams, I thought I would see if anyone here could shed some light on the subject.

heres the link: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24851

 

[clfsean]

You're just talking about a 3 strike combo right?

 

[shaolinDave]

hi clfsean
I would say you are half right. I wouldn't say its JUST a 3 strike combo though. Aside from the speed, the flow is a bit different from standard combos. You end up striking a relatively small area of the body because the distance from striking area to striking area effects speed.
Imagine throwing an elbow,but let your fist strike your target first and your arm "colapse" into an elbow. Then, as you recoil your elbow, that movement in turn brings your back fist into play. Its almost as if any given strike is supported or intiated by the movement directly after it.
Also, the speed difference is like the difference in pulling the trigger of a semi auto as fast as you can, or firing a full auto.

 

[clfsean]

No I was pretty much correct. Three hits on one movement. Lin wan... continuing.

What's your question about again?

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, thats pretty standard stuff in CMA. I'm curious as to the question myself.

7sm

 

[shaolinDave]

I am wondering myself If you guys actually read my thread. First I was inquiring as to the history of a Kempo technique I practice. And when asked if it was just a 3 strike combo I said no, I was correct. There are many variations of what could be considered a 3 strike combo. And again many types of one arm 3 strike combos.This is one of them. Maybe you could give me some examples of what you are talking about. Or maybe how your system uses similar techniqes. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[clfsean]

Ummm... ok.

First off... I don't practice kem(n)po so your terms are way different than I would ever consider. I practice Choy Lee Fut. So I can't give an answer to something I'm not familiar with coming from your system. As far as a "specific" 3 strike technique called... "chinese triple hand" ... you may want to ask whoever started your flavor of kem(n)po. I'm pretty sure it's just a name of a particular technique.

I gave you the answer in my post. Lin Wan means continuing. Lin wan means continuing from strike to strike to strike, etc... until the problem is resolved. If it means "X" number of hits with one hand, both hands, kicks, etc... until the problem is resolved. Most CMA's use this theory pretty universally, as it applies to their idea of getting things done.

 

[7starmantis]

I am wondering myself If you guys actually read my thread. First I was inquiring as to the history of a Kempo technique I practice. And when asked if it was just a 3 strike combo I said no, I was correct. There are many variations of what could be considered a 3 strike combo. And again many types of one arm 3 strike combos.This is one of them. Maybe you could give me some examples of what you are talking about. Or maybe how your system uses similar techniqes. Any help would be appreciated.

I'm still a bit confused. Are you asking how our system would use a technique like that? Thats a bit ambiguous in CMA (Chinese Martial Arts). Techniques like that are quite abundant, and the principle of collapsing and attacking with the elbow and such is pretty universal. Like others have said, the name you used is probably from whomever started your system of Kenpo. The principles of collapsing from a strike into another strike, into another strike, etc.... is part of what makes CMA what it is. Is a very universal principle.

So what exactly is your question again?

7sm

 

[shaolinDave]

sorry guys, on further review of my post, I was alot more vague than I had thought..... and a tad snooty........a tad. You were right 7starmantis.

clfsean...i apologize for offending you.After I posted the comment that am sure set you off,I left imediatly for work, and regretted it the whole day. You got a little rough there dude. Almost a potential kempo flame. Just remember, in retrospect, I don't study Choy Lee Fut. So terms like Lin wan mean nothing to me. Although I did look it up afterwards.I do have one question for you though, your description of Lin Wan seems to point more to a philosophy of continuous striking(Of course I may be off base). So it does describe what I am talking about. But more in a general non specific way. I was wondering if you could point in the direction of info( web, books). Most of the sites I have found mention it, but don't elaborate.

So since this stuff is very common in CMA. Maybe we can talk about some good training methods or applications. Again any help would be appreciated.

 

[arnisador]

I think it's also common in Systema, and maybe in some Indonesian systems.

I've seen some such techniques demonstrated that struck me as likely to be very weak and ineffective. Others seem to flow more naturally.

 

[shaolinDave]

I agree with you arnisador about some being weak. Thats one of the reasons I started this thread. Hoping to learning better methods and training.

 

[sifu Adams]

shaolinDave,

I didn't know I was throwing you to the woves when I sent you to this thread. I believe you are wonting to know a little about how the three stikes are applied and how to train. I didn't know that Kempo even had any thing like it. any way. I have seen a few different ways of using it. One way: Punch from the shoulder, then elbow, then wrist. Most opponits will relax after they block the first punch, you then follow thru witht he second breaking the gard then finsh with a flick to the eyes using your fingers. your motion forward should not stop. Alot of the shaolin or Kung fu I have seen is based off of 3 strikes combos. If you study pressure point you will find that the attacks can be used to knock your opponit out.

 

[shaolinDave]

Thanks sifuadams. I like that very much. By punch from the shoulder, do you mean actually hitting with the shoulder, or should the punch come from the shoulder?

After I had read your post on three step arrow in southern Mantis, I looked it up. I found an article where at one point it talks about someone using the eye flick on Chuck Norris(MAster Gin Foo Mark???).

Again thanks for the info.

 

[sifu Adams]

shaolinDave,
Master Mark is of the southern Mantis. My instructor is one of his deciples. To here him tell the story is priceless. When I talked about a punch from shoulder I was refering to your adverage reverse punch. from the elbow is like a back fist. Master Mark will tell you that everybody has short distance power however most dont practice it. he has more power within six inchs that most master do throwing from the hip. The three step arrow does have a pull in it as well, much like the move you decribed in kempo. If you can desribe a little about the move and maybe some of us can help you learn to prefect it.

 

[clfsean]

sorry guys, on further review of my post, I was alot more vague than I had thought..... and a tad snooty........a tad. You were right 7starmantis..

Just a wee bit...

clfsean...i apologize for offending you.After I posted the comment that am sure set you off,I left imediatly for work, and regretted it the whole day.

It's cool. Just remember this is the Net & there's no vocal inflection on anything so we can't "hear" what you meant.

You got a little rough there dude. Almost a potential kempo flame.

Not even rough. I just call it as I see it & like I said... no vocal inflection. :wink2:

Just remember, in retrospect, I don't study Choy Lee Fut.

True enough, but it's CMA & Shaolin in origin.

So terms like Lin wan mean nothing to me. Although I did look it up afterwards.I do have one question for you though, your description of Lin Wan seems to point more to a philosophy of continuous striking(Of course I may be off base). So it does describe what I am talking about. But more in a general non specific way. I was wondering if you could point in the direction of info( web, books). Most of the sites I have found mention it, but don't elaborate.

Lin Wan (continuing) is a philosophy of many things in CMA like I said in a previous post. It's continuing the motion & movement. It's flowing from an initial strike to completion. There are specific techniques that are named with Lin Wan directly because of their application & usage, but it's still just the continuing idea.

I hate to say it this way, but it works... think of water running down a hill. It doesn't stop because something gets in its way. It goes around, through, over, under, etc... until it gets to the bottom of the hill, but until then it's always moving to its objective & destination. Lin Wan is the same thing in essence.

So since this stuff is very common in CMA. Maybe we can talk about some good training methods or applications. Again any help would be appreciated.

Three biggest things I can offer on that. 1) Practice basics. Everything needed is found in basics. 2) Don't think single. Single isn't Lin Wan. Single isn't continuing. Single is a "smart bomb". Think "carpet bomb". 3) Get a practice partner to explore this. Then ask your teacher for advice & correction.

 

[arnisador]

The continuing movement can be very effective. I remember the first time it was demonstrated on me by a friend who was studying kung fu--well over 20 years ago!--and I was very impressed by it.

It's the more specific technique of throwing a punch and then collapsing it forward into an elbow, then collapsing that into a hit with the shoulder, etc., that I am more unsure about. I've seen this done well and I've seen it done with no power and moving so directly on a single line that it's easy to sidestep. Continuously redirecting hits is one thing, but collapsing forward on one line isn't always effective, I think.

Here's a link on the Systema version ("trinity strikes"):
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7444

See post #6, for example.

 

[eyebeams]

Mizongluohan approaches this through a number of its sets. Gongliquan and Tam Toi both have these sequences, which begin with an elbow and flow into another technique. They work pretty well. Mizong teaches them in a very large frame to start with. but actual application shrinks. Since your natural tendencey is to shrink your frame when you make contact, you should try exaggerating the movements to take into account the space needed to drive through the opponent.

If you're talking about short range, "jing"- reliant changes from palm to fist and so on, I'm less confident about their effectiveness without some serious training. Xingyi has some of this stuff, but you need to master the art's short range power generation (be practicing wood fist about a zillion times, etc.) first.

What goes without saying is that you need to hit the bag to work body mechanics and mitts to develop them in a dynamic environment. Lastly, though, I'd not that many of these techniques are ways to bridge the arm. Thing about using the elbow to displace or attack the arm instead of focusing solely on the head and body.

 

[sifu Adams]

This seem to be one of the best thread I have seen in a while. I would like to hear different ways of using this "chinese triple hand". I will start it off

I have been told that the monks that used the tiger system had a move called "Tiger ripps the heart". this was were the tial of monk pulling the a opponets heart from their chest. I have never seen it done? but here is the way the move worked. bucause of the way the chest is made you can not reach thru the ribs with a tiger claw hand. so you would start by thrusting with the fingers flat and striat between the rib bones. Like the "chinese Triple hand" you would bend the first joint of each finger and thrust farward into the chest. next you would bend the second joint on each finger and thrust, then bend at the knuckls and thrust, then the wrist and thrust, then the elbow. by now you have rolled your fist and into the chest to grab the heart. the move was said to be done fast and contenuios. Would it work? I don't know but with this Idea you could strike your opponit 6 times veary fast. what do you think and what ways would you use this "Chinese Triple Hand Idea".

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Reading through this thread, i think sean did a great job of explaining Lin Wan (continuing). Most CMA's like he and 7* said use this concept.

If you learn any Northern Shaolin, one of the first sets taught is usually Lin Wan Kuen/Lin Bo Kuen (Continuous step and punch form)
It's even done in Black Tiger with one hand, where you strike with a snake fist to the sternum, followed by a leopard paw knuckle strike to the same area followed by a collapse into a fist into the sternum. This is done very fast and ,is pretty much a six inch (short power) strike.

So it's all over CMA, but i've never heard it called that either....

jeff