Has the Arts forgotten Respect?

[ShotoJon]

I have been a proud practitioner of Shotokan Karate for over 8 years and have achieved the rank of Red belt, becoming the highest rank in my dojo. Throughout my 8 years of training, the most stressed aspect of Karate was Respect. Respect for youself, your opponent, and for everyone and everything in between. However, lately, what I've seen of other dojos in my area through tournaments and talking to other martial artists i know has utterly mortified me. Black belts, waltzing through the rings WHILE PEOPLE ARE COMPETING! Are you kidding me?! Threats and taunts during sparring?! I can understand being competitive but really?! What are instructors teaching their students nowadays? Is this how it is all over? please respond.

 

[Cyriacus]

Remain Focused, Sir.

Some Schools no longer Emphasise Respect. That doesnt make it a New Standard.
It just means that some Instructers have broken off of that or that the person in question is a Prick.

Either way, this is NOT how it is all over, and dont fall into the trap of thinking its the Majority.
Its mostly just people being, well, Competitive, whilst disregarding Formality.

 

[seasoned]

Let me give you some things to think about, and you can decide.

(1) Is everyone called by their last name with Miss, Mr, or Mrs. in front?
(2) Is it also, yes Sir or yes Ma'am?
(3) Is the head instructor referred to as Sensei or any appropriate title?
(4) Is there no unnecessary talking before class and no talking at all during class?
(5) Is it required to show respect at all times for your fellow students?
(6) Is it required to pick up after yourself in and around the DoJo area, and keep the changing area neat and clean?
(7) Is it a must to come to class neat and clean with a washed Gi or workout uniform?
(8) No foul language before during or after class?
(9) Is it required to conduct yourself properly outside of class, and represent yourself and your school in a respectful manner?
(10) Is it a must and understood by all that there will be no promotions to a higher rank unless all material has been learned?
(11) There should never be any talk about other schools in the area, or putting down other styles of martial arts?
(12) Does the head instructor teach respect and have it flow down through he ranks, with the higher belts being good examples to follow?
(13) Is everyone expected to do their best in class, giving 100%?
(14) Are there mini clicks in the dojo, or is this discouraged?

 

[Jenna]

I have been a proud practitioner of Shotokan Karate for over 8 years and have achieved the rank of Red belt, becoming the highest rank in my dojo. Throughout my 8 years of training, the most stressed aspect of Karate was Respect. Respect for youself, your opponent, and for everyone and everything in between. However, lately, what I've seen of other dojos in my area through tournaments and talking to other martial artists i know has utterly mortified me. Black belts, waltzing through the rings WHILE PEOPLE ARE COMPETING! Are you kidding me?! Threats and taunts during sparring?! I can understand being competitive but really?! What are instructors teaching their students nowadays? Is this how it is all over? please respond.

Goodness, I am surprised to hear that even your senior grades are disrespectful! Or is that not perhaps a case of overfamiliarity? Does that equate to disrespect? Perhaps it does.

I think threats though are definitely inappropriate for any martial art and should result in severe penalty or disqualification in a competition. I think there is no place for that ever.

While, like you, I also have witnessed what is to me disrespectful behaviour, I think it is too general to say that respect in martial art is declining across the board. I even think that accusation cannot be blindly applied to perhaps those in the younger generation as we sometimes do. Any perceived decline in respect in MA, I would want to view in the bigger context of perceived declining respect in society in general. And but putting it in that context, I still find that many of those involved in martial arts, irrespective of age or generation have a greater respect for their own learning, their self-improvement and each other than some comparable non-martial artists do. Do you not agree?

I think too that we cannot always blame others for this. I think as a sensei, you must instil the values of respect in every new member who enters the training hall. That, like any kata or form, must be drilled repeatedly I think and must be corrected where it is necessary to. Thank you, Jenna.

 

[SuperFLY]

ShotoJon how does your belt system work?

I am interested as in my school Red is quite an early belt so with 8 years experience I would have expected you to be well on your way to 2nd DAN black? (in my school as long as you grade consistently you should achieve black after around 4 years) Have you had a break in between or simply do not grade often?

Sorry for the OT, just interested in how different your system is compared to the one I am used to.

 

[oftheherd1]

First welcome to MT. As to your post, I think most here at MT feel respect should be a big part of martial arts. I certainly do myself. But I have not been active in MA for some little while, and don't know what is going on in general. I know my son-in-law looked at a school for my grandson about a year ago and was very disappointed in the school he checked out. He saw kids walking around with belts loosened and dragging on the floor, as well as other signs of lack of respect. Apparently a Mcdojo.

I have also seen videos of kids not bowing before a match, or talking in class, but again, hopefully that is not the norm. How is your school?

 

[ShotoJon]

ShotoJon how does your belt system work?

I am interested as in my school Red is quite an early belt so with 8 years experience I would have expected you to be well on your way to 2nd DAN black? (in my school as long as you grade consistently you should achieve black after around 4 years) Have you had a break in between or simply do not grade often?

Sorry for the OT, just interested in how different your system is compared to the one I am used to.

In my dojo, Red belt comes before Brown, then Black and is the 7th belt you earn. and yes there where a few times that i took a break for a couple of months or so but continued training at home. i just didnt have enough time to go to class.

And i was just wondering how it is in other areas, because here its been getting increasingly worse since the death of Grandmaster Hart (R.I.P)

 

[JohnEdward]

People tend to slip into lip service. True Japanese martial arts dojos, and just not Shotokan, will emphasis respect and etiquette as they understand the importance. Often refer to as McDojos, or dojos like that portrayed in the first Karate Kid movie, Cobra Kai, lack the understanding of the importance of respect. Only playing lip service do the dojo kun. Lack of respect and trash talk isn't something new, lack of respect, it goes way back. Hence the establishment of dojo kun, and the stress of respect and etiquette in it.

Winning for some senseis is everything, to show off trophies in their window; establishing credibility to attract more students = more money, ego. For students and parents, it is everything too.

Trashing talking has always been a strategy to get inside your opponents head.

Martial arts respect, dojo kun, and good sportsmen has alway taken allot of effort and it's something people are inclined to do. It isn't a surprise nor should be that disrespect in competition exists. To uphold respect and not give into the more feral instincts in a mark of a true Karateka. One who understands the beauty and the spirit of the martial arts, follows the dojo kun, that uploads respect and etiquette is the true martial artist. As I always say, that colored cloth we wear around our waists, then means something.

 

[Tez3]

Let me give you some things to think about, and you can decide.

(1) Is everyone called by their last name with Miss, Mr, or Mrs. in front?
(2) Is it also, yes Sir or yes Ma'am?
(3) Is the head instructor referred to as Sensei or any appropriate title?
(4) Is there no unnecessary talking before class and no talking at all during class?
(5) Is it required to show respect at all times for your fellow students?
(6) Is it required to pick up after yourself in and around the DoJo area, and keep the changing area neat and clean?
(7) Is it a must to come to class neat and clean with a washed Gi or workout uniform?
(8) No foul language before during or after class?
(9) Is it required to conduct yourself properly outside of class, and represent yourself and your school in a respectful manner?
(10) Is it a must and understood by all that there will be no promotions to a higher rank unless all material has been learned?
(11) There should never be any talk about other schools in the area, or putting down other styles of martial arts?
(12) Does the head instructor teach respect and have it flow down through he ranks, with the higher belts being good examples to follow?
(13) Is everyone expected to do their best in class, giving 100%?
(14) Are there mini clicks in the dojo, or is this discouraged?

What's mini clicks?

 

[ShotoJon]

I've never heard the term "dojo kun". What is it?

 

[clfsean]

What's mini clicks?

Probably meant clique...

 

[ShotoJon]

First welcome to MT. As to your post, I think most here at MT feel respect should be a big part of martial arts. I certainly do myself. But I have not been active in MA for some little while, and don't know what is going on in general. I know my son-in-law looked at a school for my grandson about a year ago and was very disappointed in the school he checked out. He saw kids walking around with belts loosened and dragging on the floor, as well as other signs of lack of respect. Apparently a Mcdojo.

I have also seen videos of kids not bowing before a match, or talking in class, but again, hopefully that is not the norm. How is your school?

As for my school? Disrespect is met with severe and sometimes public (such as in tournaments) discipline. Disrespect simply isn't an option for us. And that goes for the parents as well who watch our class. Sensei Turner (6th? 7th degree black belt? im not sure but pretty high rank) has said he can always tell one of Sensei Lindas students in tournaments by how we address others and general behavior. But that doesnt mean we are extremely strict and ridged. We have fun and often have conversations during class. But only during stretches and other warm ups. We are like a family. But we also know that when Sensei says be quiet we shut up. i love my dojo.

 

[JohnEdward]

Welcome ShotoJon,

To answer your question, Dojo Kun is the ethical code of behavior written as rules to be observed by all members of the dojo- includes respect. Basically put, dojo kun is a modern variation of the Samurai moral code that is expected to be observed and integrated into the student's character in and outside the dojo. The dojo kun is about character developed and is seen by some as a kata that is to be practiced and perfected. Meaning dojo kun is a means of character development. Dojo kuns vary slightly from art to art, worded directly or indirectly all true dojo kuns the same goal of ethical behavior.

Traditionally the dojo kun is hung in the dojo for all to see, a traditional Japanese cultural practice of showing importance and not having someone get around the rules by with the excuse of I didn't see it. Some dojos can't or don't hang the dojo kun in the dojo or place they practice. And some sensei's don't use the Japanese term "dojo kun" but rather use the term "dojo rules" or something close to that, presented to the students verbally or as expectations. Such as you described in your school disrespect isn't an option.

 

[seasoned]

What's mini clicks?

Thanks for the support, I always knew I could count on you. Funny that with all the posts I put up, it is this one you decide to comment on.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for the support, I always knew I could count on you. Funny that with all the posts I put up, it is this one you decide to comment on.

Why are you being sarcastic? I genuinely didn't know something and rather than post up something about something I didn't know I asked a question, better to ask a question than look stupid I've been taught. I don't know how your dojo works, it may be some form of training I'm unfamiliar with as I know I don't know everything. It might be something good, something I can bring into my training, there's no need for you to take this the wrong way.

and I still don't know what it is?

 

[Sukerkin]

If you missed what CLF posted above, duck, I think Seasoned meant a "clique" - a closed sub-set of the membership forming an 'exclusive' little club of their very own and scorning all those not in it.

The pronunciation of the word is one of those 'separated by a common language' moments for the American's pronounce it "Click", rather than, as we properly do, "Cleek" .

 

[Tez3]

If you missed what CLF posted above, duck, I think Seasoned meant a "clique" - a closed sub-set of the membership forming an 'exclusive' little club of their very own and scorning all those not in it.

The pronunciation of the word is one of those 'separated by a common language' moments for the American's pronounce it "Click", rather than, as we properly do, "Cleek" .

Thank you! I really did not know what was meant, I don't appreciate people thinking my ignorance is my taking a cheap shot at someone.

 

[seasoned]

Why are you being sarcastic? I genuinely didn't know something and rather than post up something about something I didn't know I asked a question, better to ask a question than look stupid I've been taught. I don't know how your dojo works, it may be some form of training I'm unfamiliar with as I know I don't know everything. It might be something good, something I can bring into my training, there's no need for you to take this the wrong way.

and I still don't know what it is?

: a narrow exclusive circle As in mini

group of persons; especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes As in clique


I spelled it click instead of clique.
In a dojo setting it is never good to tolerate seperate groups or cliques which sometimes work to undermine the group as a whole.

Thanks Mark.

 

[Buka]

ShotoJon, ahh, yes, the respect issue. The fact that you know the difference between the way those people you mention act, and the way you know what a respectful demeanor is, tells much. You just keep it up. The hell with crap around you. If you're in the Arts for the long haul they will be but a memory. You will be an example.

 

[SuperFLY]

In my dojo, Red belt comes before Brown, then Black and is the 7th belt you earn. and yes there where a few times that i took a break for a couple of months or so but continued training at home. i just didnt have enough time to go to class.

And i was just wondering how it is in other areas, because here its been getting increasingly worse since the death of Grandmaster Hart (R.I.P)

thanks quite a bit different for my school. we have 10 kyu's. im currently 1st and going for black so it'll be the 11th belt. its strange how different it can be between schools..

From my POV regarding your topic though, in both my schools we maintain a good level of respect but in a very laid back fashion.

My seniors at karate are referred to ask 'mr/mrs ...' my teacher is my sensei. we are expected to bow in and out of the dojo and before and after each set of techniques. students are expected not to talk, especially when sensei is talking. obviously if you're discussing sets or learning moves you can of course ask, but im more talking about idle chat.

other than that though we are pretty relaxed and its a nice friendly environment to train in.

At aikido its pretty much the same, although the etiquette is a little more relaxed. bow in and out, and when entering the mat. kneel and pay respects to sensei and master (picture) and we leave the mat in grade order. other than those things its a relaxed chatty environment where we try techniques, discuss different applications etc.. again however, when sensei speaks.. you dont although when the grandmasters come in everything stops immediately until they tell you to continue or leave.

so waffle aside, both schools are pretty relaxed but we do stick firm to basic respect principles. i wouldnjt say we pay lip-service to it as theres more meaning in it than that but we dont take ourselves too seriously either.