Grabbing The Handgun During a Violent Encounter

[lklawson]

I just wanted to share a training experience I had years ago. We got a bunch of martial arts guys, brown belt and up, who had trained gun take aways in our art and we got a bunch of experienced shooters together. We had a police handgun instructor, teaching the class. (he also had rank in our system.) We paired the martial arts guys with the gun guys and trained our take aways. We learned a bunch of things. People who shoot guns a lot, do not let go of the gun. After a bit, we switched to using loaded air soft guns, to see if it really worked.

Towards the end of the class, someone brought up the statistic that when someone pulls a gun, if you run you will have a 90% or greater chance of surviving. Its hard to hit a moving target, the more distance you make, the harder the shot will be and you have to hit something vital, not just get hit. So, we decided to run our own test. We had the police handgun instructor pull a gun on one of the guys. That guy had to run and we marked out a distance of 10 yards to get to, thinking that would be a safe distance, where you should find cover or at least make the shot much harder. The shooter would wait until the other guy made the first move, before he opened fire. The the that ran, got hit about ten times, before he cleared the 10 yard line... We tried again, having the guy run side to side, random lateral movement. He got hit even more times, because it took longer to get passed the line. So, then, we said, most shooters won't have the same experience as this guy. We got one of the martial artists, who had only ever used a fake gun in his martial arts classes. This was the first time he ever held a real gun in his hand. (part of the earlier instruction) We made him the shooter. He missed once or twice, but was able to hit the running guy with at least 80% of the shots, one each trial. He was only hitting him 3 or 4 times before the guy crossed the line... on the first trial, he kept shooting the guy well after he crossed the line, because he was excited.

To sum up. We tried having the guy run, and the runner got shot quite a few times before he got 10 yards away. This happened with both a very experienced shooter and a very inexperienced shooter. Running straight away, or side to side did not make much difference in our tests.

We figure, it has to do with how the statistics are gathered. If a guy goes into a movie theater with 250 people and shoots 20 of them dead, while everyone runs... that says 90% of the time, running will save you, if the shooter is not trying to shoot you. If you go to a mall or school, with even more people... again, you get a pretty good survival rate, from running... as long as the shooter is not trying to shoot you.

I don't know if we did our testing right. But, I do think I got enough to know that when the gun comes out, if the guy wants to shoot you, whatever you do, is going to have a low percentage of success. There is not a simple answer. The worst thing you can do is freeze or be indecisive. But, is running better than trying a take away? Its hard to say.

Note: I am not arguing with the suggestion to move. I am just trying to share what we learned when we tried it. What we found was that running was not a "Get of Jail Free" card.

I know that moving directly away to "increase distance" is popular and "zigzagging" seems to still (for some unknown reason) get some love, but I don't really recommend it.

Ask any shotgunner, for instance, hitting targets moving more-or-less directly away is easy. Hitting targets that are moving laterally is harder. You have to lead and know your lead (which may be next to nothing at effective pistol distances). Further, my experience is that inexperienced shooters don't maintain their movement when they press the trigger. IOW, they halt the movement of the gun when the press the trigger. If the target is moving more-or-less directly away (even if "zigzagging"), then the chances of hitting are still pretty good. When moving laterally, the shooter has to keep moving with the moving target to hit.

Is this a "get out of jail free card?" Not even close. You're just trying to make it a bit harder.

Again, to reiterate, as much as possible that lateral movement should be toward cover, or concealment if cover is unavailable.

Thanks for sharing your experiment. It reinforces my observations about moving directly away or "zigzagging."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Possible confounding factor - how does the accuracy of airsoft weapons compare with that of real guns? Any opinions from the firearms experts in the crowd?

Depends on the distance and the quality of the airsoft. A decent quality airsoft at 30 or 40 feet it's not going to be significantly inaccurate enough to make a training difference in most cases.

And they sting too. If you really want motivation while doing airsoft "live" or "force on force" <cough> training, wear a T-Shirt (and goggles/safety-glasses of course). Those rascals can draw blood and will almost always welt you. The pain is a motivation to move.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Makes me think about my old jujutsu instructor. When he was teaching us mutodori (facing a swordsman when you are unarmed) he said that if you were unarmed and facing a decent swordsman, you would die. However, If it was a decent swordsman and he was that close, you would die if you tried to run away also. Since it was considered preferable to die attacking rather than trying to run away, we would learn mutodori.

Distance. If you are withing one step, roughly, and gain gain the initiative, you've got a chance. Human reaction time is such that most people can pass the point before the swordsman can react. If you are within arms reach, then you have a much better chance. It is nearly impossible for human reaction to occur.

This is the essence of Silver's "True Times," particularly the last one I mentioned which would be his "Time of the Hand."

This also has applications to the OODA Loop.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Next experiment I'd like to see: what if the gun is not in range for grappling? If you see the shooter approaching at distance, what is the minimum range at which running and evading gives you a greater than 50% chance of escaping without getting hit? That would make a cool experiment.

Possible confounding factor - how does the accuracy of airsoft weapons compare with that of real guns? Any opinions from the firearms experts in the crowd?

Airsoft don’t have the same recoil, which should make for improved aim on follow-up shots. I suspect their accuracy is much lower, but probably not a huge difference at the distances in question.

 

[geezer]

If confronted with a handgun during a violent encounter and you have to engage then you want to be offline and gain control. Grabbing the handgun gives you control of the weapon and it also can shut the weapon down by causing a malfunction if the opponent fires it. Of course in IRT we are causing damage to the opponent during the engagement. Following is link to a video from my blog demonstrating how the malfunction happens:

The Instinctive Edge

Our group in Texas has also experimented with this and came up with the same results. Some of us were a bit surprised that you could stop the slide from cycling with your bare hand and not suffer injury. But repeated attempts confirmed your conclusions.

Secondly, regarding whether or not grabbing the gun and attempting a disarm is wise, I think we all agree that normally grappling with an armed attacker is strictly a last resort. so I'm not sure where all the blowback was coming from.

Regarding Kirk's comments on weapons grappling being "just grappling" ....well yes and no. Grappling to gain control of a weapon, using any and all means possible, is different than grappling "mano a mano" to submit or defeat an opponent. For one thing, a lot of striking will be involved. And as Bruce Lee famously said about punching....

 

[pgsmith]

Distance. If you are withing one step, roughly, and gain gain the initiative, you've got a chance. Human reaction time is such that most people can pass the point before the swordsman can react. If you are within arms reach, then you have a much better chance. It is nearly impossible for human reaction to occur.

That's very true. However, if you are unarmed and within one step of a decent swordsman, he'd have already cut you.
Of course, someone that is pointing a pistol at you that you might be forced to take away from them, are not likely to be the most experienced at actually using a firearm. Those living the thug life aren't given much to practicing, they tend to rely more on intimidation.

 

[geezer]

...However, if you are unarmed and within one step of a decent swordsman, he'd have already cut you.
Of course, someone that is pointing a pistol at you that you might be forced to take away from them, are not likely to be the most experienced at actually using a firearm. Those living the thug life aren't given much to practicing, they tend to rely more on intimidation.

Right, and if a guy is right in front of you with a pistol, maybe even pressing it to your head or up under your chin, he's using intimidation. Clearly, he's not going to shoot you ....at least till he gets what he wants, or you'd already be dead.

So you have to weigh your options. Which will give you the best chance of survival ...giving him what he wants, trying to run away, or going for the disarm? Depending on the circumstances, any one or the above might be the safest choice.

 

[lklawson]

That's very true. However, if you are unarmed and within one step of a decent swordsman, he'd have already cut you.
Of course, someone that is pointing a pistol at you that you might be forced to take away from them, are not likely to be the most experienced at actually using a firearm. Those living the thug life aren't given much to practicing, they tend to rely more on intimidation.

More than you might think.

Criminal Firearm Training | Second Call Defense

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[hoshin1600]

Towards the end of the class, someone brought up the statistic that when someone pulls a gun, if you run you will have a 90% or greater chance of surviving.

i think this "statistic" is an urban legend. if by chance it was correct i would want to know if the percentage was due to the fact that
(A) most criminals are not out to kill you but have other motives and do not fire due this fact.
(B) your test gives me the impression that it was done in an open environment, most shooting happen in a closed environment where concealment and cover are more available. more obstacles for the shooter to get past for a clean sight.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

i think this "statistic" is an urban legend. if by chance it was correct i would want to know if the percentage was due to the fact that
(A) most criminals are not out to kill you but have other motives and do not fire due this fact.
(B) your test gives me the impression that it was done in an open environment, most shooting happen in a closed environment where concealment and cover are more available. more obstacles for the shooter to get past for a clean sight.

A third possibility - in cases where a real firearm is in play, the adrenaline levels are likely much higher than in a training environment. That adrenaline could make a major difference in accuracy - especially for a shooter without professional experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think this "statistic" is an urban legend. if by chance it was correct i would want to know if the percentage was due to the fact that
(A) most criminals are not out to kill you but have other motives and do not fire due this fact.
(B) your test gives me the impression that it was done in an open environment, most shooting happen in a closed environment where concealment and cover are more available. more obstacles for the shooter to get past for a clean sight.

I think the biggest problem with that stat (if it is even a statistic) is that we don't have the comparable statistic for not running, nor for struggling. If those are 95% and 92% (making them up), then the 90% for running is somewhat worse than the alternatives. If they are 75% and 50%, then the 90% is a much better option. That all, of course, assumes the 90% is valid.

 

[lklawson]

I think the biggest problem with that stat (if it is even a statistic) is that we don't have the comparable statistic for not running, nor for struggling. If those are 95% and 92% (making them up), then the 90% for running is somewhat worse than the alternatives. If they are 75% and 50%, then the 90% is a much better option. That all, of course, assumes the 90% is valid.

Article and advice from Sergeant Jim Wagner.

Black Belt

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Article and advice from Sergeant Jim Wagner.

Black Belt

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

According to that article, the 90% is the chance of surviving being shot. Some good discussion in there of some of the problems - both physical and psychological. I can feel some training coming on.

 

[lklawson]

According to that article, the 90% is the chance of surviving being shot. Some good discussion in there of some of the problems - both physical and psychological. I can feel some training coming on.

Medical technology being available, of course...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I just wanted to share a training experience I had years ago. We got a bunch of martial arts guys, brown belt and up, who had trained gun take aways in our art and we got a bunch of experienced shooters together. We had a police handgun instructor, teaching the class. (he also had rank in our system.) We paired the martial arts guys with the gun guys and trained our take aways. We learned a bunch of things. People who shoot guns a lot, do not let go of the gun. After a bit, we switched to using loaded air soft guns, to see if it really worked.

Towards the end of the class, someone brought up the statistic that when someone pulls a gun, if you run you will have a 90% or greater chance of surviving. Its hard to hit a moving target, the more distance you make, the harder the shot will be and you have to hit something vital, not just get hit. So, we decided to run our own test. We had the police handgun instructor pull a gun on one of the guys. That guy had to run and we marked out a distance of 10 yards to get to, thinking that would be a safe distance, where you should find cover or at least make the shot much harder. The shooter would wait until the other guy made the first move, before he opened fire. The the that ran, got hit about ten times, before he cleared the 10 yard line... We tried again, having the guy run side to side, random lateral movement. He got hit even more times, because it took longer to get passed the line. So, then, we said, most shooters won't have the same experience as this guy. We got one of the martial artists, who had only ever used a fake gun in his martial arts classes. This was the first time he ever held a real gun in his hand. (part of the earlier instruction) We made him the shooter. He missed once or twice, but was able to hit the running guy with at least 80% of the shots, one each trial. He was only hitting him 3 or 4 times before the guy crossed the line... on the first trial, he kept shooting the guy well after he crossed the line, because he was excited.

To sum up. We tried having the guy run, and the runner got shot quite a few times before he got 10 yards away. This happened with both a very experienced shooter and a very inexperienced shooter. Running straight away, or side to side did not make much difference in our tests.

We figure, it has to do with how the statistics are gathered. If a guy goes into a movie theater with 250 people and shoots 20 of them dead, while everyone runs... that says 90% of the time, running will save you, if the shooter is not trying to shoot you. If you go to a mall or school, with even more people... again, you get a pretty good survival rate, from running... as long as the shooter is not trying to shoot you.

I don't know if we did our testing right. But, I do think I got enough to know that when the gun comes out, if the guy wants to shoot you, whatever you do, is going to have a low percentage of success. There is not a simple answer. The worst thing you can do is freeze or be indecisive. But, is running better than trying a take away? Its hard to say.

Note: I am not arguing with the suggestion to move. I am just trying to share what we learned when we tried it. What we found was that running was not a "Get of Jail Free" card.

Great post. Sounds like a great place to train, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Medical technology being available, of course...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah, I assume that's the condition.

 

[drop bear]

A third possibility - in cases where a real firearm is in play, the adrenaline levels are likely much higher than in a training environment. That adrenaline could make a major difference in accuracy - especially for a shooter without professional experience.

Get the shooter to do a 100m sprint. Then re do the drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Get the shooter to do a 100m sprint. Then re do the drill.

Or set off the fire alarm. It's amazing what those things do to my nerves when they go off.