Going to the ground

[pvwingchun]

I would like some informed opinions here please and if you have them actual statistics, though I doubt they exist.

In a confrontation, street fight, self defense situation, How often does it go to the ground? I have heard numbers ranging from 10% to 90%. My actual experience tells me it is low but not as low as 10%.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cthulhu]

If I remember right, a lot of those figures were pulled from law enforcement statistics involving LEOs getting into physical altercations with suspects.

Cthulhu

 

[pvwingchun]

This is what I am referring to, although I would feel that is a skewed statistics because they want to get you on the ground to restrain you. This is not a street confrontation, or a bar or nightclub with two guys mixing it up.

 

[Nightingale]

I've seen quite a few bar fights...

only time I saw someone go to the ground was when they weren't getting up anytime soon. someone hitting the floor usually ended it.

 

[pvwingchun]

Once again this is my point. I believe this number of 90% is a number perpetrated by those who ground fight to get people into their schools. I have heard or read somewhere once that the number was put forward by the Gracie's to promote BJJ.

Thanks for the reply and I look forward to more.

 

[KennethKu]

Any statistics is from LE reports. Do you really think every Dick and Harry are going to report every fight they get into, so we can have a nice stats to look at?

 

[7starmantis]

I don't know about the stats, I do know that I'm most likely not going to purposefully take any fight to the ground with the exception being a Chin Na type takedown of my opponent, where I have a joint lock of some sort.

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

well...

I try to operate under the idea that its my opponent that's going to the ground...not me...you know, the whole horizontal meditation thing?

 

[pvwingchun]

Any statistics is from LE reports. Do you really think every Dick and Harry are going to report every fight they get into, so we can have a nice stats to look at?

These are exactly the kinds of answers I had hoped to avoid. Once again informed opinion please. Those opinions can be based on personal experience which would make them informed opinions as a few of you have given here.

 

[kenpo12]

I haven't been in a fight in a long time but I've only had one out of the 4 fights I was in go to the ground. I will say that I went to a high school where fights happened almost daily and most of the fights I witnessed went to the ground, but I only remember one or two going there because someone wanted it to. In most cases the fights that went to the ground went there because someone tripped and fell and the other person jumped on top of them or kicked them.

Thats just my minimal experience, hope that helps.

 

[pvwingchun]

Thanks kenpo12 those are the kinds of responses I am looking for.

 

[SenseiBear]

On our blackbelt tests, there are portions of the self defense that are as close to real fights as any bar fights I have seen - Spontaneous Multiple hand and foot attacks from the front and rear, by 1-5 attackers at full contact (attackers are gloved to reduce injury), and the patterns I have witnessed there parallel the bar fights/street fights I have witnessed:

One on One, most of the time the fight goes to the ground because one person tripped, fell, or got knocked down, and the other person followed them to the ground to finish the fight - Only 10 - 15% of the time (in my experience) does the fight go to the ground and have the outcome determined there.

In Multiple attacker situations, however, it seems things go to the ground closer to 50% of the time - which is not what I was led to believe in my early years training - but as a defender dispatches/fights off the first 2 attackers, 3 and 4 or 5 often jump on him and take him to the ground - and then grappling often isn't an option because while you grapple with person 3, #'s 4 and 5 are hitting/kicking... Not a fun place to be.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by pvwingchun
These are exactly the kinds of answers I had hoped to avoid. Once again informed opinion please. Those opinions can be based on personal experience which would make them informed opinions as a few of you have given here.

FYI Sir,
If you don't already know it, the 90% number IS ACTUALLY from a LE report. As for the 10% number, I would bet it is pure garbage. This topic has already been discussed at length in another thread.
The point is, any statistics you may come across, ONLY represents a small sample, as the majority of confrontation is NEVER reported NOR tallied. (Henceforth the previous remark "Do you really think every Dick and Harry are going to report every fight they get into, so we can have a nice stats to look at?)

Nevertheless, if you are only interested in people's personal experience....oh well....

 

[pvwingchun]

If you don't already know it, the 90% number IS ACTUALLY from a LE report.

I knew that.

The point is, any statistics you may come across, ONLY represents a small sample,

I learned all about statistics in graduate level statistics classes.

as the majority of confrontation is NEVER reported NOR tallied.

Nevertheless, if you are only interested in people's personal experience

Which is why I am looking for informed opinion and/or personal experience....

 

[streetwise]

Too many variables to make a sweeping statement. Does one of the fighters want to fight on the ground? Do BOTH? Do neither? How is the footing? Trained strikers, or brawlers? It is safe to say "the ground happens" so be prepared for it.

 

[tmanifold]

What is below comes from a pamphlet provided for the ASLET Use of Force Training Seminar: Future of Non-Lethal Force Training-Reality Based & Integrating Techniques for Non-Lethal Force Training.

(No, I am NOT making that title up. That is what it says!)

The training was presented in 1997 in LA, by Sgt Greg Dossey, Sgt John Sommers, and Ofc Steve Uhrig of the LAPD. It includes a description of the study and methodology used in investigating Use of Force incidents by LAPD.

In 1991, Sgt Greg Dossey, an Exercise Physiologist with the LAPD completed a comparative study of use of force incidents reported by LAPD for the year 1988. The study was replicated in 1992 by LAPD's Training Review commitee.

St Dossey looked at all 5, 617 use of force incident narratives written by officers in 1988, and devised a method for codifying the information contained and analyzing them for what is called their dominant patterns.

"Of the 5,617 reports examined, only 2,031 incidents contained a sufficient level of aggressive resistance by the suspect toward the officer to qualify as an altercation."

"Five patterns of combative interactions between officers and suspects accounted for 95 percent of these altercations. Within each of these five patterns, a description of the most frequent first, second, and final combative action was generated by the computer"

The significant findings of the study were:

in 1988 there were 316,525 arrests made by LAPD.

5,617 (1.7%) of these arrests required the completion of a use of force report.

2,031 (0.6%) altercations developed from these arrests.

The study also goes into excessive force complaints, lawsuits, and settlement amounts paid out.

In 1988 there was an average of 867 arrests and 5.6 altercations per day. 856 oficers reported injuries from such altercations, and 2,095 days off occurred due to injuries sustained in altercations.

"Four combative actions by suspects accounted for almost two thirds (65.8%) of these I.O.D. injuries; the officer was kicked 23.4 percent, punched 16 percent, thrown/tripped 15 percent, or was bitten 11.4 percent. In 1988 the average officer in uniform and assigned to the field was in less than 3 altercations."

(The thrown/tripped statistic includes injuries sustained from wrestling on the ground. The study goes into the percentages of injuries based on targeting of the attacks by suspects as well. For example: kicking resulted in injuries to the legs 36%, the head 27%, the rib cage 22.5% and the groin 14%. The most common injury was a bruise to one of the above, though several fractures occurred. The most common injury suffered in groundfighting was a strained lower back.)

67% of the altercations developed from these field activities: disturbances (33.8%), traffic stops (18.5%), observed narcotics activity (14.8%). Over 90 % of the subjects were male and 9.5% were female.

(It's L.A, so I guess its anyone's guess on that last .5%!)

To Be Continued...

Tony

 

[tmanifold]

As I mentioned above, the study showed that five patterns accounted for 95 percent of altercations in 1988. Any police officer working in the field will be intimately familiar with these patterns.

I also think this is where the idea that 90+% of fights go to the ground comes from. The statistic is being wrongly assigned.

Continuing:

Five altercation scenarios/patterns accounted for 95 percent of the altercations in 1988:

"33.7% Officer grabbed the subject by the arm and the subject pulled his arm away; the most frequent second act was the officer applying a joint lock (32%) and the most frequent final subduing act was the officer taking the subject down to the ground (46%)"

"25.4% Subject ran at the officer and swung punches and kicks; the most frequent second act was the officer evading the subject and strikng him with the baton (26%; a close second was taking the subject to the ground 22%) and the most frequent final subduing act was taking the subject to the ground (35%)"

"19.3% Subject refused to assume a searching position as verbally ordered by the officer; the most frequent second act was the officer applying a joint lock (35.5%) and the most frequent final subduing act was taking the subject to the ground (36.5%)"

"10.5% Subject ran from the officer, officer chased the sbject; the most frequent second act was the officer taking eh subject to the ground (40%) and the most frequent final subduing act was also taking the subject to the ground (39.5%)"

"6.8% Subject assumed a fighting, martial arts, or boxing stance but did not attack the officer; themost frequent second act was teh offier striking the subject with the baton (38%) and this was also the most frequent final act (41%)"

"In addition, nearly two thirds of the 1988 altercations (62%) ended with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject."

***********************

So to more accurately quote the LAPD statistics, it would be better to say that when officers actually physically fought with suspects (versus simply encountering minor resistance or non-compliance which required a minor use of force, but not an altercation);

95% of the time those fights took one of five patterns, and

62% of those five types of altercations ended up with the officer and subject on the ground with the offier locking and handcuffing the suspect.

Tony

 

[chaosomega]

I don't think there could ever be a solid statistic for fights going to the ground. The last fight I was in, it didn't go to the ground. But I was also trying to stay on my feet. The majority of my 'fights' took place in elementary school, where one out of 2 or 3 fights went to the ground BECAUSE I took it there. I was doing ground and pound before the UFC! Or when it was just starting... But I'd never heard of it at that time anyhow. WHATEVER. Bye!