Gays aren't natural? Who cares? God?

elder999

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I recently found this graffiti on the wall in the men’s restroom at work: “X is a lesbian.” Under that was written: “Too bad, lesbians are out of balance with Mother Nature. It is an illness of the soul. Nature is harmony.” I was taken aback. First off, the Laboratory as an environment that encourages diversity, and is filled with some of the most intelligent people in the world-with little time for bathroom graffiti-though their “beliefs” do cover a fairly wide spectrum. Secondly, how could someone who seems to consider himself a “spiritual” being seem to be so prejudiced?

Then I thought about it, and questioned why I would think someone “considers himself a spiritual being”? Would it be because he mentioned “Mother Nature”, or used the words “soul”, or “harmony”? We mustn’t be deceived by someone’s vocabulary. Forget their words, but pay close attention, indeed, to their actions, but, for the sake of argument, let’s say that the men who wrote those words do, in fact, consider themselves spiritually oriented :a great number of the people here are fundamentalist Christians, but this seems to be from some other camp.

Let’s look at “Mother Nature” for a moment. Perhaps I could list some things that are not natural. What about deodorant? Wouldn’t it be more natural to just smell? What about combs? Couldn’t you just let your hair go natural? What about toothbrushes, or shoes? Should we throw away our knickers? Trimming a beard, washing hands, or, for that matter, compassion, are all arguably foreign to “Mother Nature”. Some folks would say it’s not normal. That means it is not the usual. Organic veggies are not normal. Hormone free dairy or eggs are not normal. A Rolls Royce or Mercedes convertible are not normal cars.

Then, there are those who seem to be totally unaware of the scientific research showing same sex attraction in many different species of mammals. This is simply fact. Anyone can check it out for themselves. Or, for that matter, the numerous scientific studies that are pointing towards a genetic component to sexual orientation.

What about the “Nature is harmony” part of the graffiti? A tornado or hurricanes are part of nature. Do we disturb the harmony of nature when we build shelters for our families to protect us from storms?

Now, let’s address this: “It’s an illness of the soul”. Well, to my mind, the soul cannot be sick. The soul is a divine spark of the Creator. It is immutable.

Things in this material world come from either love or from fear. A person who would write judgmental or prejudiced things is probably not coming from love. Granted, they may use a vocabulary of love and concern, such as “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, but watch their actions, not their words.Iin a society of free people, why would we not allow people to believe that gay people are out of balance with Nature? We should respect the rights of others to their beliefs and opinions. We don’t have to respect the beliefs or the opinions, but in order to protect our own rights, we need to respect the rights of others.

I disagree with what those people wrote on the walls of the restroom, but I defend their right to say and believe it. At the same time, I defend my right to hold differing views. We could experience peace instantaneously if our brothers and sisters would walk their talk and mind their own business, instead of forcing everyone else to live according to how they think they should. Sometimes, the best thing we can do is to leave someone alone. On the Right, they tell us they want to legislate their beliefs into law in order to protect the family, marriage, Mom, and apple tarts- or is it apple pie?:lol:

The Leftists are attempting thought control and calling it hate crime legislation. This is straight out of the old USSR, where certain thoughts are criminalized. Please don’t be fooled by the language of good intentions. It is never ethically permissible to use evil means to achieve good ends. Thoughts and words must never, never, never be crimes. Even if you disagree with those thoughts and words, you must never allow politicians to outlaw thought and speech. If you do, if you allow them to criminalize thoughts and speech you disagree with, one day they will use that precedent to outlaw your ideas. That’s why I defend this graffiti writer’s right to be wrong.

Though scribbling on bathroom walls is rather bush-league. :lol:

Every day of my life I encounter this way of thinking, though. We hear it from neighbors, priests, preachers, rabbis, teachers, gurus, politicians, activists, etc. How do I respond? Usually, I just mind my own business. I’m not concerned about what others think or believe. It usually doesn’t matter much to me who someone sleeps with, or what gender they are. It usually doesn’t matter much to me what someone believes about such things, or if they think it’s wrong. I care only when they attempt to force their beliefs on me. Then, I might try to communicate my independence by telling them to clean up their own house before trying to fix someone else’s Or, I might say a silent prayer for them, or I might tell them to piss off. It really depends. Again, sometimes the best thing we can do is to tell a fool to piss off. Sometimes, they really need that. There’s nothing spiritual about being a doormat for anyone who wants to abuse you.

Finally, I thought I’d send a message to the haters, the intolerant, and the ignorant, whether they write on restroom walls in Los Alamos, legislate policy in Washington DC, or post on this board. In the spirit of all those who marched on Selma and Washington, they need to know this: gays are not going away, any more than black people did. Gays are not going to be quiet, any more than American Indians are. Gays should never go back into the closet. The days of timidity, intimidation and fear are over. Gays should never live like that again. No one should. It doesn’t matter to the rest of us how you misuse the Bible and religion to condemn them. Your beliefs and thoughts are your own, but you should never again be allowed to legislate rights away because of them. You demand the right for yourselves to marry and divorce as many times as you want, yet you deny them that very same thing even once. Those days are coming to an end. Gays-and the American people-should never allow you to amend the Constitution or make them, or anyone, outlaws in their own land, simply based upon who and what they are.
 
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Empty Hands

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First off, the Laboratory as an environment that encourages diversity, and is filled with some of the most intelligent people in the world-with little time for bathroom graffiti...

I work at a laboratory in one of the foremost research hospitals in the world, and I see the same stuff. Swastikas, gang signs, pornography, and plenty of racist and homophobic remarks. Truly a remarkable bounty.
 

teekin

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I recently found this graffiti on the wall in the men’s restroom at work: “X is a lesbian.” Under that was written: “Too bad, lesbians are out of balance with Mother Nature. It is an illness of the soul. Nature is harmony.” I was taken aback. First off, the Laboratory as an environment that encourages diversity, and is filled with some of the most intelligent people in the world-with little time for bathroom graffiti-though their “beliefs” do cover a fairly wide spectrum. Secondly, how could someone who seems to consider himself a “spiritual” being seem to be so prejudiced?

Then I thought about it, and questioned why I would think someone “considers himself a spiritual being”? Would it be because he mentioned “Mother Nature”, or used the words “soul”, or “harmony”? We mustn’t be deceived by someone’s vocabulary. Forget their words, but pay close attention, indeed, to their actions, but, for the sake of argument, let’s say that the men who wrote those words do, in fact, consider themselves spiritually oriented :a great number of the people here are fundamentalist Christians, but this seems to be from some other camp.

Let’s look at “Mother Nature” for a moment. Perhaps I could list some things that are not natural. What about deodorant? Wouldn’t it be more natural to just smell? What about combs? Couldn’t you just let your hair go natural? What about toothbrushes, or shoes? Should we throw away our knickers? Trimming a beard, washing hands, or, for that matter, compassion, are all arguably foreign to “Mother Nature”. Some folks would say it’s not normal. That means it is not the usual. Organic veggies are not normal. Hormone free dairy or eggs are not normal. A Rolls Royce or Mercedes convertible are not normal cars.

Then, there are those who seem to be totally unaware of the scientific research showing same sex attraction in many different species of mammals. This is simply fact. Anyone can check it out for themselves. Or, for that matter, the numerous scientific studies that are pointing towards a genetic component to sexual orientation.

What about the “Nature is harmony” part of the graffiti? A tornado or hurricanes are part of nature. Do we disturb the harmony of nature when we build shelters for our families to protect us from storms?

Now, let’s address this: “It’s an illness of the soul”. Well, to my mind, the soul cannot be sick. The soul is a divine spark of the Creator. It is immutable.

Things in this material world come from either love or from fear. A person who would write judgmental or prejudiced things is probably not coming from love. Granted, they may use a vocabulary of love and concern, such as “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, but watch their actions, not their words.Iin a society of free people, why would we not allow people to believe that gay people are out of balance with Nature? We should respect the rights of others to their beliefs and opinions. We don’t have to respect the beliefs or the opinions, but in order to protect our own rights, we need to respect the rights of others.

I disagree with what those people wrote on the walls of the restroom, but I defend their right to say and believe it. At the same time, I defend my right to hold differing views. We could experience peace instantaneously if our brothers and sisters would walk their talk and mind their own business, instead of forcing everyone else to live according to how they think they should. Sometimes, the best thing we can do is to leave someone alone. On the Right, they tell us they want to legislate their beliefs into law in order to protect the family, marriage, Mom, and apple tarts- or is it apple pie?:lol:

The Leftists are attempting thought control and calling it hate crime legislation. This is straight out of the old USSR, where certain thoughts are criminalized. Please don’t be fooled by the language of good intentions. It is never ethically permissible to use evil means to achieve good ends. Thoughts and words must never, never, never be crimes. Even if you disagree with those thoughts and words, you must never allow politicians to outlaw thought and speech. If you do, if you allow them to criminalize thoughts and speech you disagree with, one day they will use that precedent to outlaw your ideas. That’s why I defend this graffiti writer’s right to be wrong.

Though scribbling on bathroom walls is rather bush-league. :lol:

Every day of my life I encounter this way of thinking, though. We hear it from neighbors, priests, preachers, rabbis, teachers, gurus, politicians, activists, etc. How do I respond? Usually, I just mind my own business. I’m not concerned about what others think or believe. It usually doesn’t matter much to me who someone sleeps with, or what gender they are. It usually doesn’t matter much to me what someone believes about such things, or if they think it’s wrong. I care only when they attempt to force their beliefs on me. Then, I might try to communicate my independence by telling them to clean up their own house before trying to fix someone else’s Or, I might say a silent prayer for them, or I might tell them to piss off. It really depends. Again, sometimes the best thing we can do is to tell a fool to piss off. Sometimes, they really need that. There’s nothing spiritual about being a doormat for anyone who wants to abuse you.

Finally, I thought I’d send a message to the haters, the intolerant, and the ignorant, whether they write on restroom walls in Los Alamos, legislate policy in Washington DC, or post on this board. In the spirit of all those who marched on Selma and Washington, they need to know this: gays are not going away, any more than black people did. Gays are not going to be quiet, any more than American Indians are. Gays should never go back into the closet. The days of timidity, intimidation and fear are over. Gays should never live like that again. No one should. It doesn’t matter to the rest of us how you misuse the Bible and religion to condemn them. Your beliefs and thoughts are your own, but you should never again be allowed to legislate rights away because of them. You demand the right for yourselves to marry and divorce as many times as you want, yet you deny them that very same thing even once. Those days are coming to an end. Gays-and the American people-should never allow you to amend the Constitution or make them, or anyone, outlaws in their own land, simply based upon who and what they are.

Beautifully distilled. Once the sweeping judgments like the one made on the bathroom wall ( ideal place for it) are expounded however, I think that individual person is in fact ready to follow Father Jim to the new Eden and have some cookies and Kool Aid. Hell, I'll buy them the cookies.
Lori
 

shesulsa

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Spanking post, elder999! :xtrmshock :whip1: Oh ... oops! :uhoh: Perhaps I shouldn't have typed that out loud. :uhoh:

Watch for zealots .... ;) :lol2:
 

Kacey

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Homosexuality has existed for all of history - after all, people don't generally make laws about things that are not happening, which suggests that homosexuality (and bestiality, for that matter) existed in Biblical times, or why write laws against it? As elder stated, homosexuality exists in a wide spectrum of species throughout nature - only humans attempt to regulate or end it, and then only in certain times and cultures.

If homosexuality is as wrong as some cultures say - then why would people in those cultures, some of which included rather significant sanctions (including death) against homosexual acts, why would anyone choose to be homosexual? That such preferences continue to appear even in the face of societal norms to the contrary - along with the preponderance of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - suggests to me, logically, that there is a biological basis; otherwise, those societies which are so vehemently anti-homosexual would have extinguished such supposedly "chosen" behaviors long since.
 

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Homosexuality has existed for all of history - after all, people don't generally make laws about things that are not happening, which suggests that homosexuality (and bestiality, for that matter) existed in Biblical times, or why write laws against it? As elder stated, homosexuality exists in a wide spectrum of species throughout nature - only humans attempt to regulate or end it, and then only in certain times and cultures.
Only humans have morals.
If homosexuality is as wrong as some cultures say - then why would people in those cultures, some of which included rather significant sanctions (including death) against homosexual acts, why would anyone choose to be homosexual?
We know "Russian Roulette" is a fool's game, and no one should be so stupid as to play it, yet some choose to do so. I've heard of, and spoken to, too many people who chose homosexuality to believe no one has a choice in the matter. Regardless of who/what/etc one feels attracted to/ repulsed by, each person makes choices on how to interact. Unless the claim is that homosexuals are incapable of controlling themselves, that line of argument is deader than the theory of the earth being flat.
That such preferences continue to appear even in the face of societal norms to the contrary - along with the preponderance of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - suggests to me, logically, that there is a biological basis; otherwise, those societies which are so vehemently anti-homosexual would have extinguished such supposedly "chosen" behaviors long since.
Just as some people play "Russian Roulette" and win, doesn't make it a safe or sane game to play.
 

shesulsa

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Only humans have morals. We know "Russian Roulette" is a fool's game, and no one should be so stupid as to play it, yet some choose to do so. I've heard of, and spoken to, too many people who chose homosexuality to believe no one has a choice in the matter. Regardless of who/what/etc one feels attracted to/ repulsed by, each person makes choices on how to interact. Unless the claim is that homosexuals are incapable of controlling themselves, that line of argument is deader than the theory of the earth being flat.Just as some people play "Russian Roulette" and win, doesn't make it a safe or sane game to play.

And yet again we have homosexuality being compared to a stupid, dangerous and illegal game - something that in and of itself it is not.
 

Big Don

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And yet again we have homosexuality being compared to a stupid, dangerous and illegal game - something that in and of itself it is not.
No, what we have are two things which, are both fraught with danger, one from lead, one from some in society and medical factors. Two activities people CHOOSE to take part in in spite of the risks.
 

shesulsa

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No, what we have are two things which, are both fraught with danger, one from lead, one from some in society and medical factors. Two activities people CHOOSE to take part in in spite of the risks.

Oh please. This is so tiresome. Do you *really* believe what comes out of your fingers or do you just post this here to get a reaction?

Do we *really* need to post that incredibly long list of behaviors people "choose to take part in" which are "fraught with danger?"

Let's start, shall we?

Walking
Running
Jogging
Skipping
Driving
Biking
Hiking
Camping
Fishing
Hunting
Welding
Punching
Kicking
Stretching
Jumping
Cutting
Pasting
Epoxying
Sanding
Sawing
Whittling
Slicing
Medicating
Drinking
Smoking
Huffing
Typing
Sitting
Standing
Lifting
Squatting
Reaching
Calculating
Writing
Reading
Arguing
Kissing
Flirting
Eating
Snorting
Sneezing
Coughing
Knuckle-cracking
TV watching
Movie seeing
Churning
Operating
Hammering
Jack-hammering
Haying
Picking
Skiing
Snowboarding
Boogie boarding
Waterskiing
Innertubing
Kayaking
Canoeing
Swimming
Diving
Wading

:lookie:

Shooting
Stabbing
Carrying
Investigating
Warring
Gaming
Gambling
Gum Chewing
Tobacco Chewing
Match-lighting
Breathing
Mopping
Sweeping
Raking
Seeding
Weeding
Planting
Fertilizing
Urinating
Defacating
Masturbating

:uhyeah:

Licking
Snorting
Laughing while chewing food
Running with scissors
Running with crochet needle
Running with nail file
Bleaching hair
coloring hair
Perming hair
Straightening hair
Blow drying hair
waxing
shaving
plucking
hottubbing
nail biting

:erg:

Robbing
Assaulting
Snorting
Freebasing
Shooting up
Cutting
Tattooing
Piercing
Motorbiking (just thought I'd throw that in there randomly)
Stealing
Badgering
Raping
Murdering
defending oneself
Training in martial arts
arguing on internet forums

....

there's more, but I seriously need to catch my breath before I lose all feeling in my hand from typing so much. :barf:
 

teekin

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No, what we have are two things which, are both fraught with danger, one from lead, one from some in society and medical factors. Two activities people CHOOSE to take part in in spite of the risks.


Hmmmmm. Well I am going to take a different track here. Lets leave the concept of morals behind. Morals like truth are constructs. Lets deal in Facts. Can you please tell me what hard evidence you have that being gay, that is the attraction to members of your own gender, NOT the participation in a sexual encounter with a member of your own gender, is fraught with danger?
Don, this is for me a friendly debate. An exchange of ideas and views. It's interesting to hear from your side of the fence.
Lori M
 

Big Don

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[/b]
Hmmmmm. Well I am going to take a different track here. Lets leave the concept of morals behind. Morals like truth are constructs. Lets deal in Facts. Can you please tell me what hard evidence you have that being gay, that is the attraction to members of your own gender, NOT the participation in a sexual encounter with a member of your own gender, is fraught with danger?
Don, this is for me a friendly debate. An exchange of ideas and views. It's interesting to hear from your side of the fence.
Lori M
It is ALL about actions. We've all heard the old axiom that "Actions speak louder than words." True story. A person who has an attraction to members of his/her own sex and takes no action on it is hardly going to face ridicule or abuses for it, after all, how would anyone else know?
A person who CHOOSES to engage in homosexual activities has made a choice. It really is that simple.
If a person does not choose to participate in russian roulette, that person has only an infinitesimal chance of being killed by the game, when someone does choose to play russian roulette another old axiom kicks in:
You play the game, you take your chances.
 

teekin

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OK, well then Don so it's not that you oppose the concept, the idea, the constitution of being Gay but the Actions and Consequences that being Gay leads to? Can I and my girlfriend(s) then expect to live a much safer life because we don't participate in sexual activities or because we keep quiet about them? Or does it amount to the same thing in a societal view. What about a medical view? Am I more or less likely to end up needing medical attention of ANY! kind if I am involved in a long term relationship with another woman or a man? Please remember this is about Facts, no moral high ground to be had and held.
If you'd like to present your argument that I and my girlfriends ( and we are hot Cryozombie, 100 Kelvin and rising) are playing a fools game, I'll be interested to see them. All the empirical stats I have seen say otherwise, new studies may have different findings however.
Lori M
 

JadeDragon3

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Homosexuality is not natural. Its wrong. If it were right then God would have made it possible to procreate with 2 women or 2 men. Besides being un-natural it is gross and disgusting. Why would a man want to stick his thing into another man's whole that he craps out of? Isn't that disgusting to you people. If that seems normal to you then maybe you need to go to a shrink for help because that sure doesn't sound normal or right to me.
 

Andrew Green

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Homosexuality is not natural.

In your world view, in the natural world however...

By the way, it is well documented in animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Its wrong. If it were right then God would have made it possible to procreate with 2 women or 2 men.

This is you interpretation of God, not one that everyone shares. Homosexual behaviour is not viewed as wrong by all religions.

Isn't that disgusting to you people. If that seems normal to you then maybe you need to go to a shrink for help because that sure doesn't sound normal or right to me.

Lots of straight people have sexual tastes that a lot of other people find disgusting.

Even outside of sex, things like drinking the milk of another animal, now THAT is disgusting.
 

JadeDragon3

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In your world view, in the natural world however...
By the way, it is well documented in animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

This is you interpretation of God, not one that everyone shares. Homosexual behaviour is not viewed as wrong by all religions.

Lots of straight people have sexual tastes that a lot of other people find disgusting.

Even outside of sex, things like drinking the milk of another animal, now THAT is disgusting.

Andrew......Humans aren't animals. The thing that distiguishes us from animals is that we can think and make choices, animals can not. So don't compare humans to animals to validate your view that homosexuality is right.

So if God intended for man to lay with man or women with women why did he not make it possible to procreate this way????

Yes, there are a lot of straight sexual acts that some may find disgusting but I can't think of one more disgusting then putting your thing in another man's butt where he takes a crap out of. That is just plain out gross!!!!

And yes I find breast feeding to be gross as well. I hope to God that when I get married my wife does not breast feed.
 

shesulsa

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And yes I find breast feeding to be gross as well. I hope to God that when I get married my wife does not breast feed.
You do realize that you negate your very own argument right there, don't you? Because God gave women (and men, believe it or not) breasts to produce milk to feed their young with.

God gave it. Must be okay.
 

Andrew Green

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Andrew......Humans aren't animals. The thing that distiguishes us from animals is that we can think and make choices, animals can not. So don't compare humans to animals to validate your view that homosexuality is right.
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We are so. Homo Sapiens, bipedal primates in the homindae family, a species of mammal.


So if God intended for man to lay with man or women with women why did he not make it possible to procreate this way????

You are assuming there is a God and he had procreation on his mind as the sole purpose to forming intimate relationships.


Yes, there are a lot of straight sexual acts that some may find disgusting but I can't think of one more disgusting then putting your thing in another man's butt where he takes a crap out of. That is just plain out gross!!!!

I take it you are new to the internet then...
And yes I find breast feeding to be gross as well. I hope to God that when I get married my wife does not breast feed.

Actually I was referring to cows milk, mothers milk is very natural.
 
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elder999

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OK, well then Don so it's not that you oppose the concept, the idea, the constitution of being Gay but the Actions and Consequences that being Gay leads to? Can I and my girlfriend(s) then expect to live a much safer life because we don't participate in sexual activities or because we keep quiet about them? Or does it amount to the same thing in a societal view. What about a medical view? Am I more or less likely to end up needing medical attention of ANY! kind if I am involved in a long term relationship with another woman or a man? Please remember this is about Facts, no moral high ground to be had and held.
If you'd like to present your argument that I and my girlfriends ( and we are hot Cryozombie, 100 Kelvin and rising) are playing a fools game, I'll be interested to see them. All the empirical stats I have seen say otherwise, new studies may have different findings however.
Lori M

Lori-

I'm sure that's not quite what Don means, but I can see how one might misinterpret him.....allow me to help.

(Oh, btw, Lori-I'm sure you and your friends are "smokin' hot," but I think you meant 100 celsius, or centigrade. 100 Kelvin is about -280. fahrenheit......not smokin' at all...:lol..)


It is ALL about actions. We've all heard the old axiom that "Actions speak louder than words." True story. A person who has an attraction to members of his/her own sex and takes no action on it is hardly going to face ridicule or abuses for it, after all, how would anyone else know?

What Don means here is that gay people should stay in the closet, for their own safety, and the safety and sensibilities of others....sort of like how my wife and I shouldn't hold hands in downtown Memphis without expecting someone to shoot us, or at least lob a milkshake at us.....:lol:

A person who CHOOSES to engage in homosexual activities has made a choice. It really is that simple.

What Don means here is that as human beings, we should be able to rise above our baser impulses-if you're attracted to the same sex, that is. Since it's socially acceptable to engage in heterosexual activity, men can chase all the women they need, but homosexuals should restrain themselves, and CHOOSE not to have sex.....or something.....

If a person does not choose to participate in russian roulette, that person has only an infinitesimal chance of being killed by the game, when someone does choose to play russian roulette another old axiom kicks in:
You play the game, you take your chances.

What Don is saying here makes a lot of sense if you look at it this way-skydiving is dangerous. You choose to do it. If you don't do it, then you're in no danger of being ridiculed, abused, beaten, shot, spat upon, stabbed, kidnapped or otherwise molested by people who hate skydivers. :lol:

JadeDragon3 said:
Homosexuality is not natural. Its wrong. If it were right then God would have made it possible to procreate with 2 women or 2 men. Besides being un-natural it is gross and disgusting. Why would a man want to stick his thing into another man's whole that he craps out of? Isn't that disgusting to you people. If that seems normal to you then maybe you need to go to a shrink for help because that sure doesn't sound normal or right to me

whoo boy.:rolleyes:

1) Natural? Who cares? In a world where God makes hermaphrodites, two headed babies, and all other manner of strangeness, what's natural? What's important for you as a believer to rememberis that God doesn't make mistakes.

2)Gross and disgusting? Well, yeah-that's why I don't think about it,and don't do it. Well, that's not the only reason-the real reason is that I've always preferred women-matter of fact, I prefer women to the exclusion of anything else.....that's probably why, well, I don't think about it. I don't think much about anything anyone else does-that way, I don't get all grossed out and disgusted by their sexual ickiness. Try this: don't think about what two men do together, or two women do together, or two women and a man do together. Try thinking of your mom and dad doing it together instead-isn't that easier? :lol:

Or maybe, think about doing it with your mom yourself....:rolleyes:
 

JadeDragon3

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You do realize that you negate your very own argument right there, don't you? Because God gave women (and men, believe it or not) breasts to produce milk to feed their young with.

God gave it. Must be okay.

I said breast feeding was gross, I didn't say it was wrong.
 
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