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sojobow

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I salute and bow to the owners and moderators of this Forum for enabling those of us, not involved in pure tyranny, a place to discuss a viable worthwhile martial science. *Salute*

I also would like to start here, a discussion of the history of Ninjitsu. All thoughts should be welcomed as the truth has long since been confused. Lets start here: In General,

The Ch'un - Ch'iu Period of China's history began about 726 B.C. and ended right after the death of Confusus (about 480 B.C. eop). Approximately a century later, China went into a period sometimes called The Period of the Warring States. Out of pure necessity - having to do with states in constant War - what is today called Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu was born as a result of the necessity to win War.

Born in the areas once called Chi, Yen, Chu and Kou-Wu (among others Chinese states), this War Art spread (again, because of necessity to win at WAR) or blossumed to areas we call Mongolia, Korea, Eastern Russia, Japan and, somewhat later, into the Philipines.

To say that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Martial Art is somewhat purplexing as the Martial Art existed simultaneously in the abovementioned Countries at minimum. I would agree that the word "Ninjutsu" originated in Japan. However, the Martial Art itself existed, as stated, in other Countries at the same time.

Although the above is in generality only, as time and space would not allow a full expose' on the subject, there has been no time in Japanese history - after the Edo Period - when Ninjitsu has not been in use by the Japanese government. In periods when Japan was in it's "Closed Society," evidence shows that the Emperor sent out "Agents" into the outside world. Some of these "Agents" hired themselves out and never returned to Japan. Another name for these "Agent" is "Ninja." To say that Ninjitsu died out in or during any period in Japan or elsewhere in humanity - east or west, is to say that the relm of the Samurai was not based on Confusionism. (sp.l)

It would be better if we never express, to the outside world, the Art we practice.

Very basic. Lets have your thoughts as mine are a work-in-progress.

*Smoke*
 
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Genin Andrew

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Ok Sojobow,I dont know you so i assume you are a good guy and i dont want to start a war,so i will be as subtle and respectfull as possible with my response.

1. Do you believe anything you just posted?
2.Do you have any references ie. websites (preferred) or books that have a similiar explanation for that history of Ninjutsu? or did you just read a few books and establish that theory yourself?

two things i would like to add...
The ninja of JAPAN did have a 'Chinese' influence but then again so did the whole of Japan.The ninjutsu practitioners of ancient Japan were made up of SOME Chinese who DID flee the warring states and the aftermath in China. However what is this.....stuff about Korean Ninja and....what...Eatern Russian ninja!? hmmmm. Simply because a few rebels put on a mask,grab a sword and kill a few people doesn't make them a 'ninja'.

The reason most History (Japanese) states that the Ninja were formed,lived and operated in Japan was besides the obvious (that they DID) all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan. Unless you can lead me to a Russian Ninja museum or post some pictures of philopino ninja techniques then i refuse to take you or your theories seriously...

much respect
-andrew
 

Enson

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Genin Andrew said:
Unless you can lead me to a Russian Ninja museum or post some pictures of philopino ninja techniques then i refuse to take you or your theories seriously...

much respect
-andrew
i have to agree with that.
 
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sojobow

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Genin Andrew,

At least we do agree on a few points.
The purpose of the post was to hopefully begin a discussion on Ninjitsu history. We (or I) do appreciate your being respectful and hopefully, all responses will be respectful.

1. I believe everything in my post;
2. Yes, I do have references;

I have not reached the Rank whereby I am entrusted with the History, therefore, I have to search for mine own answers.

Lets look further into part of your post that seems interesting. You say "The ninja of JAPAN did have a 'Chinese' influence but then again so did the whole of Japan.The ninjutsu practitioners of ancient Japan were made up of SOME Chinese who DID flee the warring states and the aftermath in China. "

It seems that it is also possible that these "fleeing chinese" may have gone to other countries/regions than Japan. Seems your agrument is based upon the notion that these fleeing chinese only went to Japan. Some were also POWs.

Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?" Example, lets say I find a sword in Korea made by either Kan Chiang, Ci'ih Pi or Mo Yeh and another sword is found in Japan made by any one of these three individuals. How can you honor the Japanese sword and not the Korean's sword. Why is the sword used by the Khans the same as that used by some Ninjitsuist? Why is the Bow used by some Ninjitsuist the same as that used by Khan and later made famous by the Huns? Juxtapose them and see for yourself.

Lets say some of my references are people like Li Ch'uan, Tu Mu, Ho Yen-hsi. Lets say that its much easier to flee from China to Korea or Eastern Russia or Mongolia than it is to flee to Japan. You don't need a boat to go north. So how can you propose that these teachers ONLY went across the Sea of Japan? Some say "why," I say "why not."

Lets say that I personally believe that a Ninjitsuist is a specialist as described by Sun Tzu. May be poisons cause I can't fight a lick. May be sticks cause my God will not allow me to draw a sword (or any other blade for that matter); May be the Bow cause mom couldn't teach me to swing a sword. May be a 12 Guage shotgun cause the law won't allow me to own a 50 caliper machine gun. May be all I can do is infiltrate your house cause I'm a pretty good burgler. All are functions identified with the Ninjitsuist. If you only know the way of the stick, how can you critique the assassin (but both are equally important traits and very necessary when traveling in threes (3's))?

Item last; Note the following exerpt (On Warring States of China and not the Warring States of Japan which began much later).

" The political environment gave ample scope to the talents of self-styled experts in every field and particularly to professional strategist. Between 400 and 300 B.C. successive generations were decimated with methodical regularity and war became a 'fundamental occupation'. The pretence of conforming to the idyllic code of morality reputedly exemplified in the reigns of the Sage Kings had been since been abandoned. Diplomacy was based on bribery, fraud, and deceit. Espionage and intrigue flourished."

Could the above reveal a breeding ground for what may be called "Ninjitsu?"

Now, tell us your version of a history.

To Enson: Tell me why you "have to agree." Sometimes, silence is golden.
 

Don Roley

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Genin Andrew said:
1. Do you believe anything you just posted?
2.Do you have any references ie. websites (preferred) or books that have a similiar explanation for that history of Ninjutsu? or did you just read a few books and establish that theory yourself?

Andrew,
Make note of whether Sojobow will post references or just say he has references and then attempt to pile things on higher and deeper. Throw enough terminology and untracable "facts" out and most people will think you know what you are talking about. The guys with real knowledge of the subject matter just laugh at his posts. But people who use sojobow's tactics seem to be pretty good at fooling those with no knowledge of the subject matter.

You should also take the time to read some of his past posts. Once you see the type of person he is, you may stop trying to deal with him in legitimate debates.
 
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Genin Andrew

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Don, thankyou for that little insight. I have had a read of some of Sojobow's past posts and you're responses and thats why when i read his post last night about Russian Ninja all i could think of was "oh i cant wait until Mr.Roley gets a load of that"

Now Sojobow, As Don said where are those links? Some of what you said did make sense but was far too general to the point where it could have meant pretty much anything. "Ninpo teachers teaching only their children?" In you're mind why are they "ninpo" teachers? What makes them different from other parents? what do they teach their children? and save me from the "oh its too secret to discuss on the internet escape routine"

Sure it would have been alot easier for fleeing Chinese to go to Korea but what makes them Ninja? Are you saying that any Chinese man, woman or child who has fled China and found refuge in another country is a Ninja?...*AHEM*.
What made a Chinese man a Ninpo practitioner was his affiliation with the Japanese people of the Iga and Koga regions.period.Not because he put his feet in Japanese soil (lol Korean or Russian or whatever) Some even followed/became wondering Yamabushi or mixed with the Shugenda. It was this affiliation and development/teaching in fighting styles and philosophies that made a Chinese man a Ninja.

"Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?"

Yes i DO unless you can show me otherwise...
Do you know of any ancient documents relating to the Ninja such as the Bansenshukai,Ninpiden and Shoninki existing or being found anywhere outside of Japan? If so please 'enlighten' me...So far you have avoided any detail on the Philopino,Russian and Korean Ninja so i ask again what makes these people Ninja? (in you're mind at least).

...I would really love to hear a little more on the EASTERN RUSSIAN NINJA specifically...

much respect
-andrew


Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?"
 
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sojobow

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Don't think you're being very honest. Common sense would indicate that there is no such thing as a Russian Ninja existing during the period of the Chinese Warring States as there existed no Country known as 'Russia existing at that particular time. With a Ninjitsuist being identifyed by the revealed spirit of his actions, boundaries have no moment in his existance. He is basically what is revealed in his actions which also include his inactions. How you constantly disregard my actual words and their meanings is evident as I can see easily your deceit. I see no use in continuing any conversation with you on this subject.

I will, however, participate with anyone that first post their own take on the history of Ninjitsuism. It seems perplexing that there is not a single post by anyone other than myself with a take on the subject but there are plenty with an opinion on what I write. Don Roley's opinion has no moment as WE ARE NO LONGER IN HIS Traditional Japan with its made-up illusions. You may continue your worshipful affair as that is your perogative.

If you wish additional dialogue, post your take on the history. Can you prove that you exist? Can you spell "sojobow" with a small "s?" Just call me Paul if you're having a personal problem with the "s."
 
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sojobow

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Don Roley,

I count 9 references that can be easily accessed. Where are yours? Tell us when, where, how and why the artform originated. This is more important than keeping your brainwashed hommies in line.
 
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Genin Andrew

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'S'ojobow, calling out Don Roley and asking him to explain himself like that really doesn't help you in any way.All you just did was avoid the questions you were respectfully asked,you tell alot but have no answers to anyones questions.

"I count 9 references that can be easily accessed" What are they Mr Sojobow and tell me in more detail what they are all about,I am very interested.

And just as a side note, Sojobow is you're name, correct? or your nick/alias whatever. Therefore i will refer to you as that 'title' with a Capital,simple english,simple respect thing...
 

Enson

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sojobow said:
To Enson: Tell me why you "have to agree." Sometimes, silence is golden.
although your reasoning could be deemed as common sense... you have never once given any actual reference. where did you read this stuff? thats what they want to know. that is the thing with dux ryu practitioners is they never come up with actual references to their words/stories. why is it so hard for frank dux to present a picture of senzo tanaka? why is it no one has ever seen mr. tanaka but frank dux. sounds fictional. in order for people to believe you, there has to be proof. if not it remains hear-say. all they want from you is proof. it obviously does no good to argue a point that others are set in not recieving. so just present a picture, document, something and you win.

it reminds me of shiro, they bashed him all day long saying that hatsumi had it out for hayes, and one day would take his ultimate revenge for making him so famous. then shiro/gmunoz presented a certificate signed not only by hayes but from hatsumi. not only that, shiro went to the taikai and all these guys that claim to live in japan and take trips every year there could not back their claims. shiro said that he trained in the taikai in his quest gi and everyone had to shut up. that was funny. they all kinda disappeared in other threads and never confronted the topic. it turned out they didn't know everything and it was done. so get the proof and like i said you win! silence is not golden its secrecy (sp) and that has no backing.

peace
 
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sojobow

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Genin Andrew said:
'S'ojobow, calling out Don Roley and asking him to explain himself like that really doesn't help you in any way.All you just did was avoid the questions you were respectfully asked,you tell alot but have no answers to anyones questions.

"I count 9 references that can be easily accessed" What are they Mr Sojobow and tell me in more detail what they are all about,I am very interested.

And just as a side note, Sojobow is you're name, correct? or your nick/alias whatever. Therefore i will refer to you as that 'title' with a Capital,simple english,simple respect thing...
=========================================================
You have a strange way (somewhat) in asking for information. I'd try humbleness. It works well. But, for your information, here is a short list as my own studies in order to determind "The Way" is years in development and an anthology of everything I have read is personal to me.

The Samurai, The Barbarians (Khan, Atilla, Eric), History of the Ninja. The Discovery Channel.

The War College, Studies at West Point.

Various Websites references to Chinese History, DDale Seago, Shaolin Kung Fu, The Triads, The Black Dragons et al, Hatsumi Sensei, Racism in Japan, Forums (Japanese and Chinese),

Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Homework Assignments.

C. P. Fitzgerald, China, A short Cultural History. London, 1950 (Revised Edition. The Cresent Press

Miyamoto Musasha, A Book of Five Rings (rs. victor Harris).

Dr. Lionello Lanciotti, sword Casting and related Legends in China, Wu Yueh Ch'un Ch'iu.

D. T. Suzuki & Carl Jung., Zen Buddhism, An Introduction To.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War. Oxford University.

Yang K'uan. A History of the Warring States. People's Press. Shanghai.

Ch'i-ch'ao Liano, Chinese Politcal Thought.
========================================================

I rarely ask others for "references" to what they post. I enjoy the search to find out for myself. All I need is the "subject" or a "key word."

Regrding your "Side Note," the name is sojobow. There is a Poet/Writter that begins his name "e. e.". My name is what it is. You cannot change it out of any respect. It is what it is.

Now, once again; I have posted my take on a short history, Where is yours.
 
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sojobow

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Enson said:
although your reasoning could be deemed as common sense... you have never once given any actual reference. where did you read this stuff? thats what they want to know. that is the thing with dux ryu practitioners is they never come up with actual references to their words/stories. why is it so hard for frank dux to present a picture of senzo tanaka? why is it no one has ever seen mr. tanaka but frank dux. sounds fictional. in order for people to believe you, there has to be proof. if not it remains hear-say. all they want from you is proof. it obviously does no good to argue a point that others are set in not recieving. so just present a picture, document, something and you win.

Point 1. Whether or not they believe me is of no importance to me expecially when their presented Spirit is antagonistic. Not presenting "proof" is mutually exclusive from and disattached from being proposed as a liar.

Point 2. All I asked for is other's opinion on what they think is a beginning history of Ninjitsu. Anyone serious about the subject knows, beforehand, that the actual history will never be known with any certainty. There are native-born Japanese that will look upon this subject as pure nonsense and it very well may be. But, it seems, only 2 people here have taken it seriously enough to profess their opinions. Didn't ask for a short take on Ninjutsu as I really find more than enough takes on Ninjutsu's history. As I believe that the difference between Ninjitsu and Ninjuts is similar to the difference to day and night, Ninjitsu is more important to me personally. Where's your take on the beginning of Ninjitsu? Post it.

Point 3. Regarding the remainder of your post, ask Sensei Tew. He knows. Good question, now that I think on it. Why have you not already asked Sensei Tew?
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
I have posted my take on a short history, Where is yours.

Translation,
"I have listed as many books as I can without page numbers or anything like that so that I can get the other side off my back for a while. By the time they realize that these things do not back up what I say, most people will have hopefully forgotten."
 
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sojobow

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Don Roley said:
Translation,
"I have listed as many books as I can without page numbers or anything like that so that I can get the other side off my back for a while. By the time they realize that these things do not back up what I say, most people will have hopefully forgotten."

Another Translation.

I did my research, you do your own. I am not against leaving you as ignorant as you are now. Anyone serious will know where the references are in the Art of War or A Book of Five Rings. You should just about know them by heart by now. Here is one just for you - Fitzgerald, pages 94 to 99. Can't get you in West Point so you'll have to take my word for it. Good thing about the Chinese Books, most of them are very short - usually less than 150 pages which you should be able to read in one night. I read the translated versions cause I can't deal with the kanji. I know, you speak all languages so you'll get the original versions, but be advised, the originals ( a couple ) were written on little sticks - hundreds of them. Some references were Discovery Channel documentaries so what's the problem with them. Try Alta-Vista, Ask.com, Google.com. Oh, see you've done that a number of times already.

Main point is that you got me right about one thing, I don't think much of a few people's sincerity and - selfishly on my part - I just don't feel its my job to educate them since they, like yourself, have all these spirits of hate. Then, it wasn't you that figured me out after all, it was Joe Yang. Joe figured me out a long time ago but you Buji's didn't listen. Give old Joe my regards.

When you get off that "Hey loookie at me, I'm in Japan and everybody in Japan agrees with me" attitude, you'll find that a lot of people will be glad to share information with you. You would then also realize that one reason we don't share a lot of "proof" with you is because FEW PEOPLE LIKE YOU and don't give a flying gasterol bypass what you think. Wonder if the Emperor is one of your "known-in-Japan" buddies or have you been misrepresenting him too.

Get down off the "I'm the gatekeeper of the Ninja Truths" and we might start respecting you.

Then again, maybe not.

Oh and P.S., good to see you have looked up a few of my references now and before. I've noticed. But, I really can't understand why you didn't come back and tell the forums what you found out, what was correct and or what was incorrect. My translation: "Damn, that Tengu sojobow was right. Can't let everybody know though. Makes me look bad." Peace.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
Oh and P.S., good to see you have looked up a few of my references now and before. I've noticed. But, I really can't understand why you didn't come back and tell the forums what you found out, what was correct and or what was incorrect. My translation: "Damn, that Tengu sojobow was right. Can't let everybody know though. Makes me look bad." Peace.

Becasue AFAIK, you have never been proved right about anything like this. The example of your history of the Black Dragon Society seems to be a pretty good indication of your "research". A bad movie plot from the Ashida Kim web site.

Oh, and care to give an exact source that backs up what the Ashida Kim site said about the BDS?
 
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sojobow

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Why not just go away. I am concerned that the moderators here will close this thread due to you and your raiders posting opinions of no use to the subject of our trying to develop what, when, where, and how this concept of Ninjitsuism developed. We're not concerned about your AFAIks or your personal issues. Just go away and take your stooges with you.

Jay Bell just closed an excellent thread on his forum dealing with Choshi Dori because of you and the usual suspects showed up posting utter nonsense unrelated to the subject and then he used some trumped-up lie about why he was closing the thread. If you guys can't stick to the subject, why post? Just leave.

Thanx.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
Why not just go away. I am concerned that the moderators here will close this thread due to you and your raiders posting opinions of no use to the subject of our trying to develop what, when, where, and how this concept of Ninjitsuism developed.

But when you see such bad historical information being treated as truth, it is hard to stand by and do nothing.

And how the heck is demanding proof to back up your claims in this thread off topic?

So, if you want us to treat you differently, you are going to have to start giving facts and sources. Ashida Kim is not a good source and when you give his site as a one, you should expect people to point it out.

When you state something, expect people to make coments about it and challenge it. Loudly complaining that people are beating you up because they won't stay quiet is not going to get you much.
 
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Genin Andrew

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Mr Sojobow,you have asked for my version of history regarding 'ninjitsu'.
First off, my level of "research" has taught me that 'ninjitsu' is no more than a Western mis-spelling of the term "ninjutsu". Which refers to the ancient "JAPANESE" fighting styles and martial ways of the Ninja.

Secondly i need to correct you on something, "The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi" is correctly titled "The" Book of Five Rings not "A" Book of Five Rings, as in 'A Russian ninja went to Korea and was raised by A group of warrior monks" that is incorrect.

I have read many books (and countless web references) about NINJUTSU and Japanese History but will list only those in which i own and feel comfortable enough using as a referance off the top of my head...

'Early Japan' by Jonathon Norton Leonard
'Samurai' by Mitsuo Kure
'The Road Back to Nature' by Masanobu Fukuoka
'Ninjutsu: The art of the invisible warrior' By Stephen K. Hayes
'The Ninja: and their secret fighting art' by Stephen K. Hayes
'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu translated by Thomas Cleary
'The Tao Te Ching'
'The Book of Five Rings' Miyamoto Musashi
'Ancient China' by Edward H. Schafer

I dont need to further list page numbers etc. Simply because these books comfortably support all i have stated in regard to the History of "NINJUTSU" and the lack of Russian Ninja...

I am surprised i have taken this stance and gotten so involved with this little debate instead of sitting back and dismissing what you have said but i am finding this almost fun. However for your sake and the credibility of your Knowledge i suggest you go and read a few Japanese History books or books Regarding Ninjutsu written by Japanese or legitimate historians/practitioners and move past your "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Homework Assignments" level of research...

And back to 'NIN JIT SU' If you can find me a book/video/essay/scroll/ or anything that refers to a "ninja" and "ninjitsu" as opposed to ninjutsu, and isnt written by A.Kim or any Black dragon members or A.Kim members but is actually a decent,good quality peace of writing that states...

a) Ninjitsu or Ninjitsuists as you call them have actual historical recordings.
b) There were once "Ninjitsuists" in Korea,Phillipenes and...oh dear...Eastern Russia.

I again draw your attention back to the comment you made about yourself being aquainted with "practitioners of Ninpo" and the fact that they only teach their children,and i again ask you the question which you carefully tried to neglect which was "what makes the parents of these children practitioners of ninpo,what do they teach and what makes them different to any other parent?"

Love your work...
 

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sojobow said:
Point 3. Regarding the remainder of your post, ask Sensei Tew. He knows. Good question, now that I think on it. Why have you not already asked Sensei Tew?
ask him what? his take on ninjutsu?:idunno:

as far as your post goes... well thats why no one will take you serious. all i'm saying sojobow is come up with an actual photo of tanaka and that will at least hault some of the continuous attack against you from "haters".

as far as history... well i think that has been said over and over... came from indie, went to china, found its way to japan to the iga/koga mountains, the concept was developed there, and honed here in the u.s.a! (for our use anyway. we don't have to fight the samurai here on american soil. hee hee!)
 
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