Freestyle Forms - what's up with that?

[Spud]

I’ve just changed schools – at my old school students rarely competed in open tournaments, so we only practiced the forms taught under our system.

A few students at my new school are preparing for an open tournament and are working on their freestyle forms. What I see is a whole bunch of very dynamic moves focusing on explosive speed, high spinning kicks and acrobatics but very little focus on targeting or attention to solid technique and stances. These guys are doing some impressive acrobatics including handsprings and backflips, but…. I’m not seeing solid fundamentals (and these guys generally have strong fundamentals in their regular forms).

So what is up with freestyle forms for tournaments? I know it is a wide open question.

 

[theletch1]

Freestyle forms seems to be an oxymoron to me. If it's a form shouldn't it be a set group of movements that are based in teaching the dynamics of the system? Freestyle forms type of stuff has always seemed to me to be more of an interpretive dance than an actual MA form. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by theletch1
Freestyle forms seems to be an oxymoron to me. If it's a form shouldn't it be a set group of movements that are based in teaching the dynamics of the system? Freestyle forms type of stuff has always seemed to me to be more of an interpretive dance than an actual MA form. Just my two cents worth.

And then their is capoeira...

 

[Spud]

Personally - I love doing a form that gracefully links individual techniques into something that flows with symmetry, timing and focus of the student and his position on the mat. There are great forms with only 18 moves, but you could work on it for years and still have things to fine tune.

These Freestyle forms are exciting and dynamic, but I don’t find the beauty.

 

[tshadowchaser]

These Freestyle forms are exciting and dynamic,

But they are they anything but fancy moves thrown togeather to imprees someone. Do they have roots in the art that the peson represents and will that form be arounfd in 50 years helping some other student learn the art.
Most of them (to me) say HEY LOOK AT ME and are worthless except for show

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Spud
I’ve just changed schools – at my old school students rarely competed in open tournaments, so we only practiced the forms taught under our system.

A few students at my new school are preparing for an open tournament and are working on their freestyle forms. What I see is a whole bunch of very dynamic moves focusing on explosive speed, high spinning kicks and acrobatics but very little focus on targeting or attention to solid technique and stances. These guys are doing some impressive acrobatics including handsprings and backflips, but…. I’m not seeing solid fundamentals (and these guys generally have strong fundamentals in their regular forms).

Going by the Paul Mitchell competitions, if they're not bellowing themselves hoarse after every two moves, they're gonna lose.

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Marginal
if they're not bellowing themselves hoarse after every two moves

...I personally love the kias in these forms that last no less than seven seconds and sound like they're straight off DBZ...I mean, come on...these people sound like they're constipated or just stepped on a nail. :rofl:

 

[RCastillo]

They are crap. No wonder people don't take us seriously. Open tournamnets are a joke, and a rip off. At least in Pro Wrestling people get laid out, and thrown, Maybe not hurt per say, but it's real contact, not "fanning the air!"

 

[Black Bear]

I always thought that martial arts (of any kind) was funner to watch than pro wrestling. But I guess pro wrestling has gotten more exciting in some ways.

I've always believed it was about the drama. Pro wrestling is a soap opera for guys.

 

[Marginal]

Tell that to Sakuraba.

 

[Spud]

Paul Mitchell competitions?

Is that for real or a phrase to describe open tournaments with freestyle forms set to music? I'm assuming the latter.

I do like the phrase.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
And then their is capoeira...

Capoeira doesn't use forms. (Unless there's some new hybrid style of it out there.)

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Spud
Paul Mitchell competitions?

Is that for real or a phrase to describe open tournaments with freestyle forms set to music? I'm assuming the latter.

I do like the phrase.

I suppose it could be, but I was mainly just referring to the ISKA forms competitions that are shown on ESPN 2. (PM sponsors them...)

 

[Shinzu]

if it doesnt have a meaning behind it then why bother. anyone can develop a form, but to have a purpose is the difficult part.

its not entertainment.... it's self defense. people need to wake up!

 

[rmcrobertson]

I tend to agree. From what relatively-little I've seen--because I just can't stand watching this crap---it's just floor exercises in gymnastics passed off as martial arts.

Personally, I wish that this stuff could be stopped, or at least completely separated from martial arts. I think it's bad--not only empty nonsense, but empty nonsense that helps screw up things.

But I guess I also think, get used to it. It'll only get worse.

I'm not sure, though, that the spirit of the enterprise is all that different from the spirit of all the UFC-type events. I mean, it's all put onna show, win a cheap trophy, advertise and make money, ain't it?

 

[Thesemindz]

There will always be people doing things differently than we do. Sometimes we feel it is innapropriate. They probably feel the same way as we do. I try to just worry about my own journey. I read a quote in an "Inside Tae-Kwon-Do" that read,

Though you may train with others, the road of the martial artist is a solitary one.

I thought that put it really nicely.
Let them do their thing. It brings em joy. As long as they are honest with their customers, I don't see any problem with it.

-Rob

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree, absolutely, that wotthell, let 'em go to it. Why not. It's not necessarily sillier than anything else in tournaments--EXCEPT that a) Paul Mitchell, ESPN, etc. are pumping cash into silly, unrealistic gymnastics and calling it martial arts; b) like the various fighting championships in cages, this stuff does have a distorting effect on everything in martial arts; c) the training necessary to do this stuff must inevitably come at the expense of actual martial arts training.

Especially with kids. I'm reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's great comment in--is it, "Breakfast of Champions?"--where everybody's ooohing and ahhing about this kid whose dad is training her for the Olympics in swimming, and the main character gets up and asks, "Who in their right mind would want to turn their daughter into an outboard motor?"

It's the professsionally-driven, paid, empty flash that I have a problem with. But again, I'd say we're all just gonna have to get used to it...

Oh yeah...and, it's boring to watch. Mostly because it has no heart.

 

[CanuckMA]

Wait 'till karate makes it to the Olympics. The forms will have to be a specific length of time. It'll be gymnastics all over again.

I can't wait for the 'Synchronized Forms' events. It'll rank right up there with those other Olympic sports of ballroom dancing and bridge playing.

 

[Jimmy"TheBear"]

Its so sad...

A couple of months ago I judged (helped out) at an open tournament. This youg girl, a orange belt, 15 or 16yrs old, worked her butt off doing an "open" weapons form. Her weapon of choice was the kama. Near the end of the form, I watched her gather both kamas in her hand and proceed to do an absolutely horendous one handed cartwheel. This girl was not a small girl, large boned, not over heavy, but heavier, which just made the move she attempted look even worse. She completed the cartwheel, finished the form dropped into a very reasonable set of the splits, and let a loud kaia fly. Obviously very proud of her accomplishment.

What is her instructor thinking? She scored the lowest of all competitors. None from the same school scored high. These guys think they are doing people favors? Instilling positive self esteem? Not only did they peddle a bunch of overly "competitive" crap to this student and others, but they have taught almost nothing useful to their students by way of self defence. Baton twirling, acrobatics, etc.. have no place in the street. In fifty years, the instructors & school owners will have their trophies on the wall, given to them by their own self perpetuating, inbred associations, and nobody will remember one of them. Because they didnt pass on anything anybody wanted to remember!

I think back often to that young lady, whenever I think about XMA or MMA or a couple dozen others.

I see the look on her face that just melted my heart.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There ya go. They taught her how to do crap that she wasn't suited for badly, rather than teaching her how to do something honest that fitted her well.

I agree. It's depressingly like those folks doing tae-bo who say in the commercials that they're just SURE now that they could defend themselves.