Found on the ICHF news page :D

[Black Belt FC]

I try whenever possible to avoid petty discussions about who is greater or who can do what in Hapkido, but since “Master Whalen” one of the few individuals who has openly offer himself and his school to me on a weekend visit gets attack I need to draw in.



I have learned many things over the years while training especially one important rule “ never disrespect seniors”. Their rank symbolized more than level of expertise they have achieved their rank thru trial and error, training, blood, tears and commitment. When I was at Boston’s very own Mudo Academy I witness first-hand years of dedication and training in Master Whalen, but more than that I witness the zenith of a true Master “the ability to teach and inspire others while running a full time school”.



This much I learned from my past instructors: when a season Hapkido practitioner execute wrist throws he will SAFELY throw his partner without getting either himself or his partner injure; that Master Whalen has done repeatedly in front of me. Further more, while at the academy Master Whalen trained beside me and execute falls like a pro. What else needs to be said?



I’m not anywhere near the level of expertise with Masters Whalen, Holcombe Thomas, JR West and Rudy Timerman. I recognize this and compliantly accept it; I only wish others do the same. I on the other hand seek them for guidance, instruction and support, I hope we train together soon.



Regards



Lugo

 

[iron_ox]

Master Whalen,

Before you leave, I deserve an answer.

When have I EVER spoken to you, emailed you, or contacted you in any way regarding becoming a member of the KHF???

You claim you have an email where my character is questioned, then produce it.

I have always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt when it came to the KHF - having said I think there are good guys in a bad organization - and you tell at least one person that I contacted you to be in this same orgainzation? Frankly, I would doubt my own sanity, let alone if I could be trusted, if such a thing EVER occured. BUT, it did not.

I think you must have made a mistake. This is only human. Please correct your mistake. My reputation may mean nothing to you, but it is important to me.

You have involved me in your discussion with Bruce, now produce the evidence of your allegation.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[greendragon]

Can I interject some sanity here?

Where do I start... Bruce I think Master Whalen is getting a little fed up with your underhanded comments about the KHF.. why not let it go.. you are not a member of that org. so what's all the keyboard lingo about, who cares if you don't like the KHF or any other organization, I sure don't. So why all the diatribe about orgs. you don't belong to?

You are a member of the Yon Moo Kwan and also the WHF. right? . welp bro I recieved my 1st Dan from Master Whalen and Kwang Sik Myung in 1992 from the WHF.. my test lasted almost 4 hours... as I remember it that was the year that Master Whalen was given the Certificate of "Instructor of the Year" by GM Myung for the WHOLE WHF and Yon Moo Kwan, I still have a photocopy of it by the way... and he is also the guy taking ALL THE FALLS on the whole first series of Hapkido video tapes,, that's right, the guy you are disrespecting was the golden boy of your organization before you were even aware of it, or probably part of it, go check out the old tapes. Master Whalen is "taking falls" on ALL the tapes from the GM that later gave you your rank, maybe you should ask GM Myung about Master Whalen.

I have known Master Whalen for close to sixteen years.. and I have known Doju Nim Ji for close to seven years.. they are two of the very best Hapkidoists that have ever drawn in a breath of oxygen. The thing that they both have in common is that they love Hapkido--on the mat!! Neither one of these two have ever injured me on the mat,, sure they have hurt me but that is what it's all about. You see that is the key--on the mat working out and pushing yourself past your limits.

Now when it comes to pushing yourself past your limits,, Bruce,, you went to Co. to train for two days.. you made it about a day and a third by your own admission. and left without telling anyone. you went to Master Whalens dojang to train,, got hurt on day two and left after yelling at people right? I wasn't at either place but I am getting the info from you right? So now you want to challenge people that have done Hapkido for days and weeks on end without quitting or leaving the mat to Hapkido endurance matches? How are you gonna all of a sudden become a Hapkido bad *** when your track record shows that you are very frail but opinionated? No offense dude but I think you should watch those Jet Li movies again and rethink why you are "challenging" 7th Dan Grandmasters of Hapkido, and then talking about how the Sin Moo people weren't impressive. Did you tell anyone on the mat that they weren't impressive? No from what I gather they all went to lunch on day two and when they came back you were gone? Wow that is impressive bro.. hardcore hardcharging all the way to the bus huh? But wait at Master Whalens dojang at least you called a cab, got home and then started your battle on the keyboard.. that is truly impressive.

Also I noticed you used Mike McCarty's name, at least spell it right before you act like you know him in some way.

Bruce trust me the Sin Moo people aren't laying for you, they all think you are a joke. So you don't need names as if that would mean anything to anyone but you. Pesonally I think you might just be some sort of idiot and that is why I refused to get in contact with you when you come to Florida. I like to hang out with real Hapkido people so I don't need to meet you and have some coffee and "talk" about Hapkido, and trust me your judgement of my Hapkido skills is the least of my concern. In closing let me say that you remind me of a saying that my very first Hapkido teacher Y.J. Chung of Dayton Ohio used to say to us back in 1969 when we ran off at the mouth like you always do. he would say "the less a can has in it the more it rattles". What a goof.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Gentlemen,

Let's get back on topic. Bruce, you were doing fairly good on doing so until you went forward with more comments. Kevin, please take it off the message board. Hal, you have alot to share about Hapkido and you are one of the leaders of the American community... don't stoop.

In short, to all, this is a venue in which we want to share information. It is not a venue in which we would care to share personal grievances. Please take it off the board, and to private email, where such banter belongs.

Thanks.

 

[iron_ox]

Kodanjaclay,

What do you mean take it off the board??? I was never involved in this mess until Whalen decided to play that card - now he should answer out in the open.

Let him correct his mistake.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Kevin,

I am a moderator. Who said what first is not my concern. My concern is keeping the forum available to all, including lurkers.

Now I asked you to take it off the board, and that is what I meant. I am not asking you to like what I am proposing; however, I am asking that you comply. I am trying to end this situation before it progresses and more serious actions need to be taken.

Regards,

 

[iron_ox]

Kodanjaclay,

I agree, who said what first is not a concern. Just what is said.


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Greg]

Bruce:

I have to agree with Master Lugo and Mr. Tomlinson when it comes to Master Whalen. I have visited Master Whalen's school several times over the past three years and have had the fortunate opportunity of seeing one of the truly great masters of Hapkido. What has always impressed me most about Master Whalen is his love of training. He really is ALL about the training. Unlike some schools where the Master or Instructor simply leads class, Master Whalen actively participates with his class, performing all the stretches, kicks and joint locks with his students. I have never seen him ask anything of a student that he wasn't willing to do himself, including falls. If you want something demonstrated, whether it's a joint-lock, a kick or a break fall, all you have to do is ask. When I was at his school last winter I saw him take a number of throws. And never have I seen anyone get injured.

With this being said, however, I wouldn't expect the instructor to be spending much of his time being thrown during a class or seminar; not because of his senior rank or fear of being thrown but simply because that's not what benefits the student the most. IMHO the instructor needs to be on his feet demonstrating the specifics of basic motion and the complexities of the technique being learned. For this reason, it's unreasonable to assume that someone who's leading a seminar or even a class is spending 50% of his time on his/her back. Again, it has nothing to do with seniority of rank, age, experience or the fear of being thrown. It has to do with providing the best possible instruction to your students.

My God, anyone who has seen Master Whalen knows he is someone who walks the walk. When he's done with class his dobok is dripping wet. I think that's why he's so respected. I think the notion of him avoiding anything that has to do with Hapkido, including taking falls, is absolutely ridiculous.

As far as switching organizations, an important point has been missed. I too would argue that switching organizations for the purpose of achieving a higher rank is not right. But this has NEVER been the case with Master Whalen. If you look at the time-in-grade intervals between each of his promotions, you'll see that he has always been at each Dan rank for the appropriate period of time. For this reason, I think the whole point of switching organizations is a moot one.

Finally when it comes to offering challenges to show up to a seminar, I don't think that's fair. It's simply a way to set someone up in an attempt to make them look like a coward at a later date when in reality, that person probably wouldn't have been able to attend the seminar in the first place. To say, "show up and we'll......" and then later say, "See...you never showed up".... I mean, come on, making challenges like this is a little sophomoric, don't you think?

Just my two cents.


Greg

 

[whalen]

Kevin:

Never, and I mean never, did I say anything negative about you. In fact, the only time your name came up was when I received an e-mail signed "Kev" with "ks" as a portion of the return e-mail address. The e-mail was simply asking for information about the KHF and that was all. I then asked Bruce if this e-mail could be from Kevin Sogar, because I didn't recognize the e-mail address. That's it. Bruce then began stating some things that I won't mention here, but I can assure you that I've never said anything derogatory about you - ever.

What I can tell you Kevin, is watch your back when it comes to Bruce Simms. Anything you say to him in confidence will be used against you at a later time when it serves his interests. I have told him things in the past because I trusted him as a friend, only to learn that nothing I said in confidence would be honored as such. As a therapist you would think Bruce would know how to keep things in confidence. His code of honor is a very flexible one.

So Kevin this will be the last post I'll make regarding this matter, but rest assured that I never made a derogatory comment about you.

Hal artyon:

 

[Kevin F. Donohue]

Bruce,

You and I agree on many of the problems and challenges that are facing the Hapkido community here in the United States and elsewhere in the world. We have all pitched in to corner the rat that caused many of us a great deal of problems over the past few years.... and that was a great win for all of us. I also enjoy the historical research and information that you have provided over your many postings.

With this being said, I do not agree with your assessment of Hal Whalen. I have known Hal for a few years and never did I see him avoid time on the mat. I never witnessed Hal avoid being thrown or having techniques applied to him. I have also never witnessed Hal trying to hurt anyone he trained with. Hal is like the energizer bunny... he just keeps going and going. In fact he is quite an inspiration to me as I hope that my body will allow me to put on the line, as often as Hal does, ten years from now. In fact Hal is one of the few masters that I have ever seen that gets on the mat and trains as hard as his best students. Very few people put their body through the constant pounding that Hal has.

As for "putting it on the line" I think that Hal is the type of person who is willing to test his skills either in the dojang or in an alley. I would never question the man's courage or determination. He has lived a life that so called "keyboard commando's" can only dream about.

Hal has always been a gentleman at any event that I have seen him attend. He is also very generous by opening up his home to Hapkido-in from around the country that wish to go to Boston to train with him. He is also the least political person I have ever met.

Maybe sometimes different personalities don't mix, but that does not dictate that we don't want the same things or that we are unable to work together. The problem that exists right now in the U.S. Hapkido community is that everyone wants to be heard but nobody wants to listen... especially if what we are hearing hurts us a little bit. Communication is a two way street and we all need to improve our listening skills since we are in agreement on 99% of what we need to do to get things moving in a positive direction; yet we fight over semantics.

My advice is for you and Hal to speak on the phone, work out your issues so that you both can move forward from here. Life is too short to hold grudges and to spend 90% of our time arguing over the 1% of the issues that we are unable to agree on.

I hope that we are all able to see our weaknesses as well as our strengths because if we are unable to do this, we will never reach our true individual potential. Have a great day.

Kevin F. Donohue

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Maybe sometimes different personalities don't mix, but that does not dictate that we don't want the same things or that we are unable to work together. The problem that exists right now in the U.S. Hapkido community is that everyone wants to be heard but nobody wants to listen... especially if what we are hearing hurts us a little bit. Communication is a two way street and we all need to improve our listening skills since we are in agreement on 99% of what we need to do to get things moving in a positive direction; yet we fight over semantics.

My advice is for you and Hal to speak on the phone, work out your issues so that you both can move forward from here. Life is too short to hold grudges and to spend 90% of our time arguing over the 1% of the issues that we are unable to agree on.

I hope that we are all able to see our weaknesses as well as our strengths because if we are unable to do this, we will never reach our true individual potential. Have a great day.

Very well put! Wheather you agree with Bruce or Hal we are all Hapkidoin and childish bickering bennifts no one. Take the high road and pick up the phone with a calm heart and mind and work out your differences or agree to dissagree. A little courtesy goes a long way.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I personally think that Frank and Greg and Ken are very right. So lets take a look at what we have here and I leave it to you to simply survey the posts in succession to validate what I am about to say.

1.) Nobody was talking to or about Hal. Actually, nobody was talking about the KHF. I used the KHF along with the WKA to underscore a point and I don't hear any WKA whining. Sorry the KHF people have thin skins but thats not my problem. I did what I could for them as a member of the Hapkido community and haven't had anything to say about them since Bae resigned and Hal said he was content to sit in his school and teach. Fine. Who exactly is it that is not letting WHAT go?

2.) Hal dragged Kevin Sogor into this discussion. Nobody was talking about Kevin, Kevin is not intersted in being involved and I am not interested in involving him. Hal made a defamatory statement and now he can't back it up. Who exactly is behavior irresponsibly here?

3.) Mike you continue to beat the drum about GM Ji. Fine for you. You are impressed with him and I am not. Whats the problem? Am I given to understand that I must automatically agree with whatever the prevailing thought is? You like Ji, and others like Ji, so I must like him as well? What about the Lee people with WHRDA or the Suh people with WKSWA? I think I could be forgiven for saying that you begin to sound like one of those cult followers whose designated hero is the holder of the one truth.

4.) And lets take a look at people leaving seminars and I will put to the side for the moment that you weren't even there-- for any of the seminar. The original seminar population was approx 40 people and started about 10am. By the time 11am came around we had lost about 5 or six people. Coming back from lunch on Saturday we were just a tad under 20, and by close of training we had about 12. Now remember, we are talking about people who purportedly are all Ji/Sin Mu practitioners and THEY couldn't stay for the seminar. Sunday we started with about 20 people and by lunch there were 15 people left. And don't get me started about the folks who spent time talking, the big fella who spent no small amount of time against the wall stretching, the two or three folks who performance was purported limited by injury or the people I worked with who couldn't take the technique because of their lack of confidence in their breakfall skills. GM Ji indicated that we would spend the afternoon doing breaking, and I had pretty much had all of the entire embarrasing situation that I cared to be a part of and quite enough of his teaching style. You have repeatedly taken me to task for leaving early but noone speaks to those people who were part of Ji's own system who didn't have the respect to stay for the entire length of their OWN TEACHERS seminar! And you--- YOU didn't even attend! Excuse me but who are you to assess ANYONES performance regarding seminar attendence?

5.) Finally there is the matter of challenges and I suppose people are making a lot of an old bookworm calling someone out who is arguably younger, stronger, faster etc etc etc. Guess what, Mike at least I am standing for something. Say what you will, and maybe I get my butt beat and maybe I drop from exhaustion, and maybe I am turn-out to be the laughing stock of the Hapkido community, but I am willing to put my performance on the line for better of for worse. What do YOU stand for? What do YOU put at risk? If I have no problem arranging to face a person with live blades just how much am I likely to be worried about a fist fight? At least I am out in front putting it on the line. I hear a lot of people talk about "warrior this" and "warrior that" and to support those positions people make a big deal about what they can do with their bodies. I don't hear any of you asking to be assessed in front of a Hapkido population of standing members to have their rank validated? I don't hear any of you people traveling across country just to prep for such an event. In fact I will take it one step farther and single you out in particular. You, Mike, did not have the simple courtesy anyone would have to respond to nothing more than an e-mail to get together--- on my own time. Who the heck are YOU to preach to ANYONE about respect, or rudeness or Hapkido solidarity?!? If you are ANY indication of the sort of intolerant, mean-spirited and small-minded person that Ji's teachings produce then I thank you for confirming for me every last suspicion I have had about you as a practitioner and Ji as a teacher.

I don't think there is much more that I can add to this discussion. People have said things and I have answered. You folks are going to do and act as you will. This dog-and-pony show will come up again later and it will be someone elses' turn in the barrel--- someone else you don't agree with-- who doesn't think the same way you do. So you have your belief system and you are happy with it. Via Con Dios. I reserve the right to disagree, to ask that people substantiate their positions with facts and that they stand by their positions. Don't like the rules? Find another game. But don't ask me to surrender my values because they are just a bit too much for your Characters to handle.

 

[greendragon]

Take care.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Hollywood1340]

I find it interesting, as starter of this thread to see where it ended up. It started as a student, me, making it known my GM has just recieved his ninth. To the best of my knowledge I have one post that is truely relevent to my starting post. I don't mind opinions or thoughts to the matter at hand, but look at the RE: line.

 

[Enson]

i personally think that a ninth is a great thing to accomplish. even though to some its for leadership what about the 8 before that and all the tropical colors even before that? i think as martial artist we should congratulate anyone that can accomplish or earn any belt.

 

[Michael Billings]

I am locking this thread for the Admin/Mod team's review due to the Moderator's warnings not being complied with.

-Michael Billings
MT S. Moderator