"Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind"

[Kane]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10369826

BAGHDAD - Iraq is edging closer to outright civil war as furious mobs attack Sunni mosques in retaliation for the bombing of one of the country's most revered Shiite shrines.

Forty-seven people were killed in Baghdad alone in the 24 hours after the blasts which destroyed the golden-domed mosque at Samarra.

Gunmen sprayed a Sunni mosque in the city of Baquba, killing one person, in the latest of dozens of incidents that have left religious and political leaders scrambling to halt a descent into all-out civil war. In the same city, a bomb targeting an Iraqi army foot patrol killed 12 people and wounded 21.

 

[shesulsa]

Kane, could you please cite your source? Thanks.

 

[michaeledward]

If someone insults or attack Muslims, they have to have revenge. It is no wonder why everything is a mess over there.

Bush seems to be sitting idle while this is all happening.

I think we need to hold that mirror up a little higher, toward ourselves.

Somebody attacked us on September 11, 2001, and we got angry and attacked Iraq.

There may have been a little detour in Afghanistan, but if you just follow the headlines over the last four years, that is what you would see.

There is a philosophy for a 'Just War'. Although that was only discussed among the very most Left leaning in our society. Certainly, nobody watching the newsmaker television programs, or reading newspapers after 911 was ever exposed to those arguments.

If we are going to decry the 'mess' 'over there', it will be helpful if we look at the ingredients we brought to the soup.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Ok. I've tried for months just telling myself that we are doing the right thing by staying in there. I've supported the president as much as I can....but i'm done.

It's time to get out there, and live up to the fact that we are not going to be able to stabilize that country. It's better for us to get our troops out of harms way, and let the country destroy itself, if that is truly where they are headed.

We got Saddam. I think that was the whole objective to begin with, even though most people in the administration will not admit to that.

I've just lost faith in this cause.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's better for us to get our troops out of harms way, and let the country destroy itself, if that is truly where they are headed.

Well, hopefully the country won't destroy itself, but I have always felt that regime change has to start at home. If the Iraqis really want a different form of government, they are going to have to set it up by themselves. Instituting a new government at the barrel of a bunch of foreigner's (i.e. The U.S. lead invasion forces) guns will only last as long as the foreigners are willing to stay and keep pointing those guns. A truly stable government has to be done by the people who live there and call it home.

I understand this may mean civil war, but at least it is their own choice, rather than war being hoisted on them by other nations.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ok. I've tried for months just telling myself that we are doing the right thing by staying in there. I've supported the president as much as I can....but i'm done.

It's time to get out there, and live up to the fact that we are not going to be able to stabilize that country. It's better for us to get our troops out of harms way, and let the country destroy itself, if that is truly where they are headed.

We got Saddam. I think that was the whole objective to begin with, even though most people in the administration will not admit to that.

I've just lost faith in this cause.

The time to lose faith was in the voting booth. Now we are in it for the long haul... faith or no faith.
Sean

 

[Jeff Boler]

The time to lose faith was in the voting booth. Now we are in it for the long haul... faith or no faith.
Sean

While that maybe true,I have still not seen a solution from either side that is appropriate. I would be more than willing to vote for a democrat, IF, they had a clear cut policy toward Iraq, and national defense. But it hasn't happened.

What is the democrat agenda? What are their plans? Unfortunately, all that I hear from them is a bunch of Bush bashing. Show me a better methods of handling things, and I will vote for you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

While that maybe true,I have still not seen a solution from either side that is appropriate. I would be more than willing to vote for a democrat, IF, they had a clear cut policy toward Iraq, and national defense. But it hasn't happened.

What is the democrat agenda? What are their plans? Unfortunately, all that I hear from them is a bunch of Bush bashing. Show me a better methods of handling things, and I will vote for you.

How about we embrace education instead ridiculing it as liberal hype. I am also accepting political contributions, now that you bring it up.
Sean

 

[Jeff Boler]

How about we embrace education instead ridiculing it as liberal hype. I am also accepting political contributions, now that you bring it up.
Sean

Which is exactly my point. Quit bashing Bush. Give us a clear cut agenda to review. Right now, all you can do is tell me how bad the country is doing. Tell me how you are going to fix it. Give me a reason not to continue to vote the party line.

I'm well aware of the fact that Bush has made mistakes. I do not need to hear it over and over again on a consistent basis.

 

[7starmantis]

Kane, could you please cite your source? Thanks.

Yes, please do.

7sm

 

[terryl965]

Which is exactly my point. Quit bashing Bush. Give us a clear cut agenda to review. Right now, all you can do is tell me how bad the country is doing. Tell me how you are going to fix it. Give me a reason not to continue to vote the party line.

I'm well aware of the fact that Bush has made mistakes. I do not need to hear it over and over again on a consistent basis.

Jeff it has been a valuble lesson learned over 200 years no-matter who is the president of this great country they all are going to make mistake, they are human after all. We put so into the fact that are Presidents cannot and should not make mistake at all, they shoulsd be perfect in a world of non perfect people.
I do not like Bush but that is my choice, on the other hand I do not like the democrate party of choice either, Now Mickey Mouse has my vote no-matter what, anybody that can bring a smile to everyone face deserve the President job in my book anyway.
Terry

 

[Bigshadow]

Ok. I've tried for months just telling myself that we are doing the right thing by staying in there. I've supported the president as much as I can....but i'm done.

It's time to get out there, and live up to the fact that we are not going to be able to stabilize that country. It's better for us to get our troops out of harms way, and let the country destroy itself, if that is truly where they are headed.

We got Saddam. I think that was the whole objective to begin with, even though most people in the administration will not admit to that.

I've just lost faith in this cause.

Unfortunately, my friend, we are NOW obligated to see it through. We have committed to an action that we MUST finish. How terrible would it be of us (and how would it look to the rest of the world) to leave Iraq now, and sit back to watch it fall into complete chaos where the innocent civilians will be far worse off than they were under Saddam's rule. In many respects they are worse off NOW than with Saddam in power. We have now created an environment there that (if we left) would fall into such disarray that the people would be left in a worse state than before we were there.

 

[michaeledward]

Which is exactly my point. Quit bashing Bush. Give us a clear cut agenda to review. Right now, all you can do is tell me how bad the country is doing. Tell me how you are going to fix it. Give me a reason not to continue to vote the party line.

I'm well aware of the fact that Bush has made mistakes. I do not need to hear it over and over again on a consistent basis.

There was this election ...

Howard Dean had a clear cut agenda ....
Dennis Kucinish had a clear cut agenda ....

But, at that time, no body was listening for a different clear cut agenda .... so we were stuck with two similar agenda's. (Except, the Democrat was talking about Port Security).

 

[Touch Of Death]

How about we embrace education instead ridiculing it as liberal hype. I am also accepting political contributions, now that you bring it up.
Sean

That little mistake has locked both Democrats and Republicans into an ongoing war. Asking Democrats their solution once you realized you bit off more than you can chew is too little too late, cuz were all chewing now.
Sean

 

[Kane]

Kane, could you please cite your source? Thanks.

Yes, please do.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10369826

 

[Kane]

I think we need to hold that mirror up a little higher, toward ourselves.

Somebody attacked us on September 11, 2001, and we got angry and attacked Iraq.

There may have been a little detour in Afghanistan, but if you just follow the headlines over the last four years, that is what you would see.

There is a philosophy for a 'Just War'. Although that was only discussed among the very most Left leaning in our society. Certainly, nobody watching the newsmaker television programs, or reading newspapers after 911 was ever exposed to those arguments.

If we are going to decry the 'mess' 'over there', it will be helpful if we look at the ingredients we brought to the soup.

You are partially right on that we did attack a nation out furry after 9/11: Afghanistan. Iraq was obviously for a different reason (even you can agree with me on that).

Actually there was less to go to war with Afghanistan IMHO. Al Queda attacked us, not Afghanistan. Afghanistan seemed like it was going to negotiate and hand over Binaladden. However, we were to quick to war, perhaps fueled by revenge. Perhaps it would have eventually led to war because Afghanistan may have been adamant but we could have avoided one.

Iraq is a different issue altogether. No one could know for sure why the Bush Administration wanted to go to war there, but it was justified simply because of the war crimes Saddam and the Baath Party committed against their people.

 

[michaeledward]

You are partially right on that we did attack a nation out furry after 9/11: Afghanistan. Iraq was obviously for a different reason (even you can agree with me on that).

Actually there was less to go to war with Afghanistan IMHO. Al Queda attacked us, not Afghanistan. Afghanistan seemed like it was going to negotiate and hand over Binaladden. However, we were to quick to war, perhaps fueled by revenge. Perhaps it would have eventually led to war because Afghanistan may have been adamant but we could have avoided one.

Iraq is a different issue altogether. No one could know for sure why the Bush Administration wanted to go to war there, but it was justified simply because of the war crimes Saddam and the Baath Party committed against their people.

The United States Military does not go to war without the support of the American Public. The only way to get the support for invading Iraq was to tie the threat of terrorism to the Weapons of Mass Destruction. This was a full court press by the Administration.

The United States did not go to war because of Saddam's war crimes. We went to war because "The smoking gun could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

And while it is a logical fallacy to assume that because Action B came after Action A that A was the cause of B. In the instance of 911 and Iraq, it is true. George Bush, Condolezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle (among others) worked very hard to make it true.