Evolution in Georgia

kenpo tiger

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ATLANTA (Jan. 13) - A federal judge Thursday ordered a suburban Atlanta school system to remove stickers from its high school biology textbooks that call evolution ''a theory, not a fact,'' saying the disclaimers are an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

''By denigrating evolution, the school board appears to be endorsing the well-known prevailing alternative theory, creationism or variations thereof, even though the sticker does not specifically reference any alternative theories,'' U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper said.

At a trial in federal court in November, the school system defended the stickers as a show of tolerance, not religious activism.

''Science and religion are related and they're not mutually exclusive,'' school district attorney Linwood Gunn said. ''This sticker was an effort to get past that conflict and to teach good science.''

But the judge disagreed: ''While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community.''

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(AP / Marietta Daily Journal, Todd McQueen)
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The stickers were put inside the books' front covers by public school officials in Cobb County in 2002. They read: ''This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.''

''This is a great day for Cobb County students,'' said Michael Manely, an attorney for the parents who sued over the stickers. ''They're going to be permitted to learn science unadulterated by religious dogma.''

Doug Goodwin, a spokesman for Cobb County schools, had no immediate comment.

The stickers were added after more than 2,000 parents complained that the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life, such as the biblical story of creation.

Six parents and the American Civil Liberties Union then sued, contending the disclaimers violated the separation of church and state and unfairly singled out evolution from thousands of other scientific theories as suspect.

The case is one of several battles waged around the country in recent years over what role evolution should play in the teaching of science.

Last year, Georgia's education chief proposed a science curriculum that dropped the word ''evolution'' in favor of ''changes over time.'' The idea was dropped amid protests from teachers.

A school district in Dover, Pa., has been locked in a dispute over a requirement that science students be told about ''intelligent design'' - the concept that the universe is so complex it must have been created by some higher power.



AP-NY-01-13-05 14:16 EST
 

Feisty Mouse

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Wow. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I didn't expect that.

Six parents and the American Civil Liberties Union then sued, contending the disclaimers violated the separation of church and state and unfairly singled out evolution from thousands of other scientific theories as suspect.
Exactly. Why not make labels for other scientific theories too?
 
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PeachMonkey

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Feisty Mouse said:
Exactly. Why not make labels for other scientific theories too?

"This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the motion and interaction of bodies in space-time. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."
 

Ping898

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Feisty Mouse said:
Why not make labels for other scientific theories too?
It might work, but then you might end spending more time reading the labels then learning the material.
I could agree with having the stickers if there was a legitamate secondary scientific theory to counter it not just some fundamenalists pointing to the bible and saying in 6 days we were made which to my understanding is the arguement that made the stickers required in the first place.
 

Bester

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I don't know. Is it possible for Georgians to Evolve?
 

Ray

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PeachMonkey said:
"This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the motion and interaction of bodies in space-time. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."
I agree with PeachMonkey about careful study, etc but would like to add: Gravity, and I mean that two masses are attracted towards each other as though a force were acting upon them, is a fact; our theories that are designed to explain it are theories and not necessarily fact.

God hasn't shared with me exactly exactly how He created the heavens, earth, plants and animals. Until He does, I don't have a problem learning the scientific theories. However, I know for a fact (as a middle aged student) that the scientific method rejects any "supernatural" explanation for anything. I could accept the whole "big bang" theory as a fact, but that won't have any bearing on its factuality; conversely, I could accept the Genesis account as a literal description, but it may not be a literal description.

Children need to be taught to think critically. But, I've found that thinking crtically means to agree with your teacher and disagree with the same things your teacher disagrees with. If you want to get an "A" then you repeat back the things your teacher tells you...
 

clfsean

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Bester said:
I don't know. Is it possible for Georgians to Evolve?
Actually we do quite well... it's everybody else moving in & trying to change Ga from Southern Cosmo & Charm to displaced Nothern Hustle & Bustle...

I'm a native Georgian... most of the people I know here aren't. :rolleyes:
 
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rmcrobertson

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Perhaps we could start putting warning stickers on Bibles:

WARNING. THE TEXT YOU ARE OPENING IS THE PRODUCT OF MULTIPLE AUTHORS AND CONFUSED EDITING OVER THE LAST 2000 YEARS. DURING THAT TIME ITS ORIGINAL FOUR LANGUAGES HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED AND TRANSLATED AGAIN. OFTEN THE TRANSLATIONS HAVE REFLECTING POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS BIAS MORE THAN THEY HAVE REFLECTED THE ACTUAL WORDS. FURTHER, THE TEXT CLAIMS THAT A CREATOR-GOD EXISTS WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS WHATSOEVER. LAST, THIS TEXT CONTAINS MULTIPLE SCENES OF SEX, VIOLENCE, AND RACIST HATRED THAT MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN UNDER 16, AND HAS REPEATEDLY BEEN USED TO JUSTIFY SOME OF THE MOST-PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOR EVER OBSERVED OR REPORTED IN HUMAN BEINGS. READ AT OWN RISK.
 
OP
kenpo tiger

kenpo tiger

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rmcrobertson said:
Perhaps we could start putting warning stickers on Bibles:

WARNING. THE TEXT YOU ARE OPENING IS THE PRODUCT OF MULTIPLE AUTHORS AND CONFUSED EDITING OVER THE LAST 2000 YEARS. DURING THAT TIME ITS ORIGINAL FOUR LANGUAGES HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED AND TRANSLATED AGAIN. OFTEN THE TRANSLATIONS HAVE REFLECTING POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS BIAS MORE THAN THEY HAVE REFLECTED THE ACTUAL WORDS. FURTHER, THE TEXT CLAIMS THAT A CREATOR-GOD EXISTS WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS WHATSOEVER. LAST, THIS TEXT CONTAINS MULTIPLE SCENES OF SEX, VIOLENCE, AND RACIST HATRED THAT MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN UNDER 16, AND HAS REPEATEDLY BEEN USED TO JUSTIFY SOME OF THE MOST-PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOR EVER OBSERVED OR REPORTED IN HUMAN BEINGS. READ AT OWN RISK.
*tiger paws clapping*

Ray, There are a few threads you might want to go into which are further back in this section and deal with exactly what you are saying. You'll find many viewpoints similar to yours, and not. One deals with Creationism in Wisconsin, another with Evolution (I'm not remembering the exact title, but you can easily find it by doing a search).

clfsean, No one has anything against Georgians or most thinking Southerners. In fact, some of my closest friends... :) However, it seems that the South tends to contain a disproportionate amount of people who would turn back the clock for many reasons (see the Civil War discussions in this thread as well as the Evolution/Creationism threads).
 

clfsean

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kenpo tiger said:
*tiger paws clapping*

clfsean, No one has anything against Georgians or most thinking Southerners. In fact, some of my closest friends... :) However, it seems that the South tends to contain a disproportionate amount of people who would turn back the clock for many reasons (see the Civil War discussions in this thread as well as the Evolution/Creationism threads).
Hey... he said it... not me... :shrug:
 

heretic888

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Once again, this all seems to boil down to not understanding what it is that scientists mean by "theory".

If anyone ever uses a disclaimer like "its just a theory", they most assuredly have no idea what they are talking about. Which, of course, is what this all boils down to --- the people protesting evolutionary theory almost never actually understand what evolutionary theory states.

And by no means does science reject anything "supernatural". It rejects that which has been disproven. It holds no other judgement for anything else.
 

loki09789

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heretic888 said:
Once again, this all seems to boil down to not understanding what it is that scientists mean by "theory".

If anyone ever uses a disclaimer like "its just a theory", they most assuredly have no idea what they are talking about. Which, of course, is what this all boils down to --- the people protesting evolutionary theory almost never actually understand what evolutionary theory states.

And by no means does science reject anything "supernatural". It rejects that which has been disproven. It holds no other judgement for anything else.
Hey Herrie,

Though I agree with the spirit that 'science' might not hold judgement for anything else - I would not be so quick to agree if you had phrased it that 'scientists' or 'people' hold no other judgement. From past discussions about his, it really degrades from a discussion about Constitutional rights and the legal process to a "Evolution rules, everything else - especially creationism is crap" mentallity.

In this case, I think you rightly targeted the language use as the big problem. "Theory" in the everyday use vs. the scientific use are very differently defined and applied.

Whether the stickers are there or not, at least the citizenry are adhering to the legal process and not taking it out on each other in anti-social ways.
 

Feisty Mouse

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MACaver said:
Sounds a lot like the handiwork of the devil if you ask me.
Forgive my ignorance, but I can't tell if you meant this seriously or sarcastically. Which is it?
 

Darksoul

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-Being from Western New York, I'm all too familiar with the "hustle and bustle" of northern life. I spent a semester in Mexico studying spanish, and one of the other students in the class questioned me and my roommate as to why we were always stressing about the schoolwork, and life in general. My roommate, from Buffalo, promptly replied "We're New Yorkers; we don't stop until the *%#! gets done." And I followed up with this: "And the $#*! never ends." Its a way of life.


A---)
 

heretic888

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loki09789 said:
Hey Herrie,

Though I agree with the spirit that 'science' might not hold judgement for anything else - I would not be so quick to agree if you had phrased it that 'scientists' or 'people' hold no other judgement. From past discussions about his, it really degrades from a discussion about Constitutional rights and the legal process to a "Evolution rules, everything else - especially creationism is crap" mentallity.

Well, personally, I differentiate between 'science' and 'scientism'. ;)
 

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