Elite female judo vs untrained male

frank raud

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Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.
In 9 months of training, you never did any randori? You never did grip fighting? The only matches in judo that start with opponents having their hands on each other is for blind people. Do you learn individual techniques from the position? Yes. If you were taught that free fighting(randori) starts from a grip, then your school sucked, not the art.
 

frank raud

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. Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling
I'm going to guess you were a child when you trained judo. They tend to not teach chokes, strangles or armbars to little kiddies PS. where do you think the Mata de Leo (rear naked choke comes from? Or the triangle choke? Or just about any other choke in BJJ? With your extensive knowledge, you realize many sessions in BJJ begin with both partners on their knees?

What submission is there in wrestling?
 

Ironbear24

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In 9 months of training, you never did any randori? You never did grip fighting? The only matches in judo that start with opponents having their hands on each other is for blind people. Do you learn individual techniques from the position? Yes. If you were taught that free fighting(randori) starts from a grip, then your school sucked, not the art.
I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.
 

gpseymour

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I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.
Even at that level, we did a bit of randori in my classes. In my case it wasn't with anything like real resistance, since I was the only new person in the classes at the time (the few other students had at least 2-3 years, as I recall).
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.
I did randori starting basically day one. Got thrown on my *** over and over, but it was fun. I'd be surprised if you still haven't done randori 9 months in.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.
This is why a grappler likes to grab on his opponent's arm/arms. When his opponent moves back, his opponent will pull him forward. If he can adds in his own forward momentum, his forward movement can be faster than his opponent's backward retreat.

The grappler needs much closer distance than a striker does. The grappler has no option but to move forward, move forward, and still move forward.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There are plenty of reasons to "move out" after "moving in" when grappling and throwing. It's about finding leverage and balance points.
The wrestler's move out is different from the striker's move out. When you move in and try to throw your opponent backward, your opponent resists, you borrow his resistance force, use 3 points footwork to move out, and throw him forward. So in wrestling, the move out footwork is also attack.
 

gpseymour

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The wrestler's move out is different from the striker's move out. When you move in and try to throw your opponent backward, your opponent resists, you borrow his resistance force, use 3 points footwork to move out, and throw him forward. So in wrestling, the move out footwork is also attack.
A grappler may also wish to disengage if he doesn't like the position he's in. If the other guy's grip is limiting my choices, one option is to try to disengage entirely and re-enter.
 

drop bear

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Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.

If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.

Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.

Yeah but you don't get to keep it.

Compare cutting an angle to sitting on top of someone. And the difference in the striking advantage.
 

Ironbear24

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Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.

If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.

Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.

Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.
My plan is typically from neutral distance I close the distance using my kicks and punches to get into clinch distance, from clinch I want to bring them to the floor generally using throwing techniques.
 

drop bear

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I'm going to guess you were a child when you trained judo. They tend to not teach chokes, strangles or armbars to little kiddies PS. where do you think the Mata de Leo (rear naked choke comes from? Or the triangle choke? Or just about any other choke in BJJ? With your extensive knowledge, you realize many sessions in BJJ begin with both partners on their knees?

What submission is there in wrestling?

There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I did randori starting basically day one. Got thrown on my *** over and over, but it was fun. I'd be surprised if you still haven't done randori 9 months in.
It's very important to wrestle on day 1 for the following reasons:

- May be the throwing art is not for everybody. The teacher can suggest a new student to train in other MA school.
- A new student will show how "honest" he is (if you push/pull, he will resist). He won't be that honest 3 months later (if you push/pull, he will yield).
- The teacher want a student to know, it's not how much you know that matter. It's how much you can do that matter.
- If a teacher uses a throw on that new student, later on when that student learns that throw, he will pay attention.
- ...
 

lklawson

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There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.

Frank Gotch's famous "Toe Hold."

Gotch_Toe_Hold_2.jpg


Arm bar and neck lock from Sanddown & Lewis' wrestling:

pp09-Illustration_No_W-61.png

pp14-Illustration_No_W-66.png

Clearly a version of the crucifix:
pp15-Illustration_No_W-67.png



Lots of other examples agree with your assertion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

frank raud

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There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking Greco-Roman or Freestyle wrestling. Momentarily forgot about Catch or submission wrestling.
 

Koryuhoka

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Questions like this are usually asked by very young people.. kids, with very little training.. beginner level at best with limited experience. This question is not really possible to answer. There are too many variables in the real world.
 

wab25

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Yeah but you don't get to keep it.

Compare cutting an angle to sitting on top of someone. And the difference in the striking advantage.
That's why I started out by discussing the tall fighter keeping range and the short fighter pressing inside. That would be the strikers equivalent to sitting on top of someone. There is a real striking advantage to keeping your opponent at the range where you can hit him, and he cannot hit you. If you are good with your footwork, you can keep that position all fight.

I also brought up getting trapped on the ropes and into the corner. This is closer to grappling, as it takes longer than cutting an angle. And you have to work the other guy into a position he does not want to be in. When you are stuck in the corner, you can reverse (sweep) your opponent into the corner or you can slide out to the ropes. Once on the ropes, you can slide to either side and slip past your opponent, or you can reverse (sweep) him and put him on the ropes. Once you reverse and get your opponent on the ropes, you drive him into the corner, to cut off his lateral movement. While this example is closer to what happens in grappling, it is harder to maintain for the entire fight... though some boxers can and do.

The other things I mentioned, cutting angles and keeping your lead foot outside, are quicker and more temporary than a pin or hold. But, they take setting up, and put the striker into a position of advantage to deliver his technique. Strikers do spend a lot of time working to get these positions of advantage over each other. You could say that they are continually doing so.

I am not arguing that one is better than the other. I am arguing that both grapplers and strikers are continually working to advance their positions. Grapplers use the phrase "position before submission." You are correct, that does not work for strikers... They could use "position before knock out." Both striking and grappling have different positions. These different positions offer different advantages and disadvantages and allow you to do different things. Both groups work are continuously working to get a better position than the one they are currently in. Being in the proper position for a technique, helps that technique be more successful.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There is a real striking advantage to keeping your opponent at the range where you can hit him, and he cannot hit you.
In another thread someone said, "a straight punch can defeat circular punch". I always believe it should be the other way around.

Do you think there is a situation that you can use straight punch to hit your opponent, but your opponent cannot use hook punch to hit you (without holding on your opponent's arm)?
 
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drop bear

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Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking Greco-Roman or Freestyle wrestling. Momentarily forgot about Catch or submission wrestling.

Still sort of. Lots of things like neck cranks that are only technically not submissions because you are not allowed to tap.
 
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