doubts about doing the right thing....

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clapping_tiger

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This may be long and to some may not seem like a big deal, but to me this is huge. I guess I am looking to see who would have done the same thing I did, and who thinks I may have punked out. Here is the situation...

My wife and I went out with another couple tonight and ended up at a karaoke bar and decided to sing a song. In the middle of our song ( I admit we suck as far as singing goes, but it is all in fun), a guy comes up and grabs the mic from me and says if you are going to sing you sing this song right, and starts screaming into the mic the lyrics. At first it did not bother me but then the took the mic and threw it at me then walked over to where he was sitting. I walked over and said, "hey, if you can sing it better, why don't you just finish the song, after all you thought it was worth your time to come out and grab the mic from us, finish the song." and handed him the mic. He then stood up and started to come at me. I pushed him away, but only because I wanted to get my distance a little bit. He held up his hands and said "hey didn't mean anything by it, it was all in fun." I apologized and started to turn to head back to my friends and I saw him wind up out of the corner of my eye and he jacked me one in the head!

Now here is where it gets interesting. I started to go after him and he turned tail and went across the bar. This gave me enough time to think about what just happened and decided at that time that he was no physical threat. He obviously hit me with an unblocked free shot, and to be quite honest, I have been hit harder by some of the kids in the youth classes. But I couldn't let this go without any sort of consequence. So I turned to the owner of the karaoke bar and told him I wanted to press charges and to call the cops. Now, my group of friends have not been drinking heavy, and his group was heavily intoxicated. When the cops started to arrive him and his friends (one of which was passed out on the bar) tried to leave but the cops stopped them. When the cops took my statement, my friends stayed inside like they should, but his friends were all outside. While the cops were taking my statement, I could see them all talking. Then when the cops went over to get his side of what happened, his friend said to me as he was walking back inside that they saw me hit him first. I did not throw any strike at all what so ever! The cops then went into the karaoke bar and took a few statements and then came out and talked to him some more, then came over by me and asked if I wanted to file a complaint. I did, and then filled out the form. Now, here is where my dilemma starts. I told the cop what the guy said about them saying that I hit him first, I did not hit him at all, and that I do have a bump on my head where he hit me. The cop did not check my head for any bumps, or marks of any kind. I then told him that I did have a bump and he may want to check it so he can write it in his report. He did not. He then told me that we had conflicting statements saying that I am saying he hit me first, and he was saying I hit him. I then I told the cop that I did not even strike at him, and when he said that he didn't mean anything by it I turned and he hit me in the side of the head, I wanted to fight him, but I didn't I tried to do the right thing by having the owner call the cops. Now, here is another thing. Who do you think was asked to leave? It was us. Why, because we were in the better frame of mind, that is what the cop told us. Now even as we were leaving they were taunting us. They even were taunting my wife, which made me want to go back and just finish this thing the old fashioned way. So my question is, would you have just smoked this guy? I am serious, it would have been no challenge at all. And now think of this, you have to live with the fact that this guy thinks he kicked your a**. And he is feeling good about hurting you, at least that is what he thinks. I have been in some close calls as far as coming to a fight comes since I joined the MA, but nothing where I have been hit. I used to fight a lot and know this guy would have been a cake walk, but I guess I can't get by this. I tried to do what's right, but now the cops tell me I may have to go to court if he decides to try to fight it. As you can tell by the time on this post it did not happen too long ago and I am quite upset by this. In a way I feel it would have been better to finish this guy off when he laid hands on me, but yet I would have easily wasted him so what was the point? Anyone else go through this inner conflict?
 

KenpoTex

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Sounds like a lousy end to the evening. Sounds like you handled yourself pretty well although I wouldn't have turned my back on the guy (I had to learn that the hard way a few years ago). As far as the way the cops handled it, you never know what's going to happen. I've seen them just show up and arrest everyone who was involved. At least you got to walk away.

With regard to the "inner conflict" you mentioned, this is definately something I have dealt with (and probably will again). There are times when you want to mess someone up so bad you can taste it but you have to ask yourself "is it worth the risk of injury and legal problems?" Yeah, it sucks to back down especially for people with agressive personalities. 50 years ago you could have fought it out, gone home, and no one would have "batted an eye." Now you're liable to get sued or arrested. It's just not worth it unless you really are being threatened or are in danger. So yeah, doing the right thing isn't any fun sometimes but it beats the alternative.
 

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clapping_tiger said:
And now think of this, you have to live with the fact that this guy thinks he kicked your a**.
A lot of people think a lot of crap, all the time. Dont let this get to you. It is a complete non-issue. Never let machismo get in the way of common sense

A few thoughts -

You may have crossed the line from assertive to aggresive when you confronted him and asked him to finish the song. He may have violated your personal space first, but you are smart enough to not get all blown up about it. He obviously wasnt. You had a chance to defuse the situation here by asking him to get on stage while he was singing, or offering to buy him a drink when he was done, congratulating him on his singing or something. You didnt take it, and that may have been a mistake.

Your second mistake was in not controlling the environment. There was no way he could have hit you, unless you let him. Had you kept him in your sights until he sat down, or until you backed away, physical confrontation could have been avoided.

I would also consider calling the police a mistake. Basically, you stand nothing to gain and a lot to lose. He could be a priest or something with an impeccable background, and your word just might not stand up to his. Then you are paying his court fees, and the pusbag might even press charges against you. I make a habit of be-friending owners and bouncers of the establishments I frequent, so I would have simple asked for him to be removed. Did the security people at the bar see this happen? They should have kicked him out without needing to call the police. Without that recourse, I would have left well enough alone. His taunting is just that. The hollow chest beating of an insecure and inferior man. Ignore it. If he attacked again, say in the parking lot, then by all means take him out, but I think calling the cops was a needless escalation.

Having said all that, bear in mind I'm simply picking on the only points where I think you went wrong, the points where you could improve for next time. I think you handled the situation quite well, and avoided needless conflict. Just remember next time to keep your eye on the sucker. Think if he'd had a bottle in that hand, instead of just a fist...
 
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TonyM.

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You did the right thing. The club owner is a douche bag. Don't go back.
 

Rich Parsons

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From bouncing and working security:

I had just got 8 guys to leave in two vehicles. All reared up and ready to go. They called me ever name in the book. As they were driving away, a younger male adult asked me, why did I let them get away with all that. Why did I not just take care of them or at least the ones mouthing off? I replied, I am alive and doing my job not filling out paper work for the police or in the hospital, and they are off, and will forget about it in a 15 minutes.

You lived and so did the others with you.


As to the response of the police. Well, I hate to this, it is normal from my experience. No one is going to the hospital therefore it was not a real fight and only an assualt or maybe simple battery, and with some talking they can get boths sides to drop the charges and or go home. The problem with this is if the other guys are regulars, and to me they actually sounded like they were, as everyone else in the bar would not speak against them, now think they can get away with crap like that. So the next person may not be nice and just talk to them. He might hit them from behind with a bottle, or what ever, or wait for them in the parking lot. Yet most people are not like this, yet there are enough, that the police will be out there in a few weeks and either he will have beat them up or he will be hurt most likely very bad. And then someone will be going to hospital and or 'In for Questioning".

Now, in response for the police, they have a tough job, and see lots of stuff like this, and are trying to just temper the situation, and make sure everyone gets home safely.

As to asking you to leave, I have done this before, yet I made sure that everyone knew they could come back, while I handled the others, and I would not let them back until they had cleaned up and or apologized for their actions.

Now for the lighter side. I absolutely SUCK at singing. I had a woman stand back from the bar, grab her bar stool and throw it at the stage where I was singing. Good thing I was about 20 yards away. She then proceeded to continue to scream, and grabbed a chair and charged the stage as well. This woman was magical. She tripped over the bar stool she had already thrown. She got up nothing in her hands and came up to me and was screaming to stop. I stopped and looked at the host. He motioned to continue, so I did, she turned around and came back screaming in my face. If I closed my mouth she would stop. If I opened it, she would scream. Even if I did not make a noise, she would turn a scream at me, until the host stopped the song, and brought someone else up.

I was worried when I sat down. I told the bartender/waitress I was sorry and did not mean to start a riot. She looked at me like I was crazy. I explained the woman and her actions, and she replied oh that is just ** Fill in name here **, nothing to worry about. This women was the local. If I had done something about the thrown bar stool or chair, or her screaming and shaking her fists at me, then I am sure the bar would have made it clear that I had done something first.

90% of the time people who call the police first are the ones who are innocent. The other 10% are those who started and got hurt, and now want to get even. From my experience.

I personally would not go back. I would also tell everyone I knew about how you were treated there, and that it is not safe there for nice people. The bar owners and regulars will be the ones who get hurt with out your money and the oney of those you convince to go elsewhere, including the Karaoke host. If any of them are people you know then let them know you will not be back. Your money and negative publicity speaks louder than any type of physical or legal issues now.

Peace
:asian:
 
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Vadim

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Hi Clapping Tiger. What a situation to be in. I am surprised that the officer did not take a look at that bump on your head or note it in his report. By what you describe your attacker should have been arrested for public intoxication and disorderly conduct. You were in the right for "pushing" your attacker away to give yourself distance as he was coming at you.

The actions you described that were taken by your attacker seems to me that he was looking for a problem. Do not feed into this by approaching him and making the situation worse. I would have done the exact same thing and called the police, because it makes the police aware of problems that occur in this type of setting. If something should happen in the future at this club where your attacker is involved the police already have documented issues of problems and can take appropriate action.

It also appears that if the club had security they were not doing there jobs. An alert security officer watching the crowds rather than skirts should have easily seen your attacker take the mic from you. At that moment security should have removed this individual from the club. A club relies on there patrons for business and if they cant maintain a level of safety for their patrons then it's not worth going there. In my state a club that has excessive documented problems is declared a nuisance club and is basically shut down and there liquor license is revoked.

In the future dont let pride influence your decisions. Calmer heads will prevail in this situation. Besides karma will get him back :wink2: .

-Vadim
 

MJS

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Yup, it sounds like you got the short end of the stick in this one. Unfortunately in this situation, it turns into a situation where its your word against his. I do feel that you did the right thing by calling the police. The security of the club did nothing to control the situation. I do feel that the cops were very negligent and lazy in the way they took care of the situation. Funny thing is, is that you could have 20 cops and depending on who you talk to really determines the outcome.

One thing that can be learned from this, is to never turn your back on a hostile situation like that. Defiantely keep your eyes on the person until some distance is between you. Not saying that 5 min. later he couldnt have hit you, but most of the times, the sucker punch is going to happen sooner rather than later.

It also appears that everyone was allowed to stay after the fact. Not sure if that was the case, but thats the way it sounds.

As for fighting him...lol..I'm split on that one. Part of me wants to say, yes, you should have swung back and the other half says that you were right in what you did, that being walking away. Regardless of what he or his friends are saying, you were still the better person.

I wouldn't let this get ya down though. Fact of the matter is, is that the guy was drunk and being an a** so just chalk it up as a bad night. There are definately pros and cons. If you did hit him, both of you could have spent the night in jail.

Mike
 

MA-Caver

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Well I don't think that you "punked-out" in what happened. The guy was being an horses' **** and thus would've deserved a cutesy little move like a descreet two finger jab to the sternum from close range. Because from your description:
Clapping Tiger said:
He then stood up and started to come at me. I pushed him away, but only because I wanted to get my distance a little bit. He held up his hands and said "hey didn't mean anything by it, it was all in fun." I apologized and started to turn to head back to my friends and I saw him wind up out of the corner of my eye and he jacked me one in the head!
He tried to cold-cock you and got lucky. You got lucky that he couldn't hit worth a damn.
What I think elevated the situation, and this is from a outside point of view, was this:
Clapping Tiger said:
I started to go after him and he turned tail and went across the bar. This gave me enough time to think about what just happened and decided at that time that he was no physical threat. He obviously hit me with an unblocked free shot, and to be quite honest, I have been hit harder by some of the kids in the youth classes. But I couldn't let this go without any sort of consequence.
I see it as the guy was like some dogs I know... all bark no bite. The dog growls and you take a step forward and "yi-yi-yi-yipe". Should've left it there as it was.
But your ego got in the way as you "couldn't let it go". Why not?
Like I said the guy was being a horse's patoote' and thus isn't worth the effort. Obnoxious when he's drunk and probably a great guy when he's sober...but not likely. Alcohol tends to inflate the bad parts of our personalities.
Calling the cops to press charges on a "baby-hit" says ego as well. Others were watching... what are you going to do? Let him get away with that...absolutely not!
IMO... who cares what others think... a friend once told me that it's: "none of my business what others think". Reacting to what you think others are thinking is projection at it's worst. Putting thoughts into other people's heads and surprise... they're your thoughts! What you think about ... you.
Someone (a stranger) thinks badly of me (we all don't want that, true) if possible I'll try to let them know I'm a great guy and worth knowing, then I'll see if that thing I did that made them think badly is an issue with the people who count...family and (real) friends. If it's a bad thing then change it. If it's not... :idunno: the (strangers) have a problem with it because they don't know you.

You did well considering your (belt) rank and style. And like several here have replied... lucky you didn't go to jail.
 

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Hi Clapping Tiger

You are obviously very confident in your abilities and you were right to defend you and your wife. I'm sure if this guy was looking for trouble he would have bitten more than he could chew. But surely anyone can see that you're in the right here, because why else would you have been teh one to call the Police?
This reminds me of situations I have been in the past where I felt so ashamed for not using my skills! One night when I was in a nightclub I was standing in front of some chairs and tables. This Guy approached and gestured with his head for me to move. No polite "excuse me" or anything but being a coward I let him and this has been a problem for me as I do tend to let people walk all over me. I have been training in Kung fu for 6 years now and have never had to use what I have learned so I don't know how effective it would be. I'm not a confrontational person but certain things do get me angry and I do recall that I felt angry at myself for not doing anything.
And this is something that has happened a lot to me over my life.

So don't feel too bad because if it had been me I probably would have done nothing but I would like to think that if my girlfriend or anyone I cared about was in danger I could deal with the threat!
 
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clapping_tiger

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Thanks for all your input, there are some excellent points I never even thought of. That is why it is always good to get an outside perspective on something like this, especially from a group such as this who can understand why I would feel the way I did. Now that I had some time to sleep on it, and by reading these posts, I realize that the situation was really not that big of a deal and I should have just shrugged it off and let it go once he left the stage. But hind sight is always 20/20, and when you are caught up in the moment you don't always make the right decisions. And even though I did not hit the guy and I am the one who got hit, not all the blame can be put on the other guy. Like stated before there were may options I did not take, and never even entered my mind.

There was no security at the bar, it was just a little local pub. When I started to turn away, I felt when he put his hands up and was like "hey I didn't mean anything by it", I didn't think there was any threat so I was just going to let it be at what it was and move on, but now I have learned otherwise. Now, I do think the cops did do a good job, like Rich Parsons stated before this was not a "real" fight and nobody was really hurt. I guess he did get cited and then was causing problems with the police which must not have helped his situation. I still don't understand why we were the ones asked to leave, but then again we were not the regular patrons of that bar, I don't know if the other guy was or not. But our night was shot after that anyway and we probably would have left even if we were not asked to leave. We could have stayed if we wanted to, they did tell us that, but said it would probably be best if we left.
I guess if I took anything out of this I did learn that even if someone appears to be backing down, it could be a ruse to lull you into a false sense of security and allows you to drop your guard and set yourself up for that sucker punch.
 
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clapping_tiger

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MACaver said:
But your ego got in the way as you "couldn't let it go". Why not?
Like I said the guy was being a horse's patoote' and thus isn't worth the effort. Obnoxious when he's drunk and probably a great guy when he's sober...but not likely. Alcohol tends to inflate the bad parts of our personalities.
Calling the cops to press charges on a "baby-hit" says ego as well. Others were watching... what are you going to do? Let him get away with that...absolutely not!
IMO... who cares what others think... a friend once told me that it's: "none of my business what others think". Reacting to what you think others are thinking is projection at it's worst. Putting thoughts into other people's heads and surprise... they're your thoughts! What you think about ... you.
Someone (a stranger) thinks badly of me (we all don't want that, true) if possible I'll try to let them know I'm a great guy and worth knowing, then I'll see if that thing I did that made them think badly is an issue with the people who count...family and (real) friends. If it's a bad thing then change it. If it's not... :idunno: the (strangers) have a problem with it because they don't know you.

You did well considering your (belt) rank and style. And like several here have replied... lucky you didn't go to jail.

good stuff, I didn't think of it that way.
 

Tgace

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Piece of advice. Always TRY to be the person who calls the police, or try to get a friend or loved one to do it. When you ask a stranger to do it and they get dispatch, the only info. dispatch gets is "men fighting at bar, one chasing the other around". Being the caller gives you some more clout (right or wrong as that can be). Who knows what that bartender said to 911, what he saw, who he knows and will cover up for. 10 people can give 10 different interpretations of the same situation.

Personally, it would have depended on the situation. If there were "offsetting penalties" or everybody seemed of the same "demeanor" (get my drift?) than I probably would have just sent everybody on their way. If I had a complainant who wanted charges and a witness, the other guy would have been going to jail.
 

shesulsa

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Good feedback so far. Tgace is right on when he says to always try to be the one to call the cops if you can, or have someone in your party do it.

As for the logistics of the fight, yeah, don't give anyone your back - you were almost completely sucker-punched.

Now as for your inner conflict - this guy has no stones. First of all, he waited until you turned around before he did anything and once he did, he wussied out and pranced over the bar.

I think you did absolutely the right thing by not wasting any more time with him. Please don't waste any more energy wondering if you did the right thing or wishing you'd smashed the varmint's face in - he's SO not worth the effort.

You were probably asked to leave first because the cop most likely believed your story - and you and yours were more coherent to drive. The others, it sounds, were clearly not. Perhaps the police had unfinished business after you left.

I wouldn't go back to that bar. It takes a big man to walk away (and take his feelings with him).
 
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red_herring

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I would not say you did the right thing.Why did you go afther the guy?When you went to ask him to finish the song then you were picking a fight with him.Maybe you did not or still do not think that, but for a drunkard it looks like that.When he came to disturbe you then he was looking for a fight(I have been to a similar situation, when the guy would have wanted to make a joke or just do it for fun then he would have acted more friendly with you.In that situation he was just showing off in front of his buds)If you did not want to fight then you should have just leave.Yes, it is not fair, but its the way the things go...calling the cops was just stupid since the cops will never take a situation like that seriously.About the bar owner-...maybe thouse guys were his daily costumers as a bar owner he had to think about his busniness not about doing the right thing.I think you should have finish it quikly the old fashioned way...afther all you went over to this guy(what was a response to his invitation to start a fight).I hope you learned from this situation.The next time just think about all the possible options and decide then, don't act out of emotion.Its allways good to keep a cool head.Just stop thinking about it and look at the bright side he could have hit you with a knife or a bottle and you could have ended up in the hospital.

H.F.

ps.Please ignore the spelling&grammer mistakes.
 

shesulsa

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red_herring said:
I would not say you did the right thing.Why did you go afther the guy?When you went to ask him to finish the song then you were picking a fight with him.
Well, yes, I have to agree with this. You could have just left the guy alone period.

However, I stand by the rest of my statement that once he hit you and ran away, not going after him and then choosing to call the police was the right thing to do. Should things have escalated and if you had gone after him and settled things "the old-fashioned way" you could have found yourself wearing steel bracelets and sitting in the back of a squad car.

And you must ask yourself, are you here to fight the good fight or not? If you couldn't give a rat's patootie about the good fight, then by all means, follow your animal instincts and clean his clock - just so long as you are prepared to live with the consequences. If you wish to fight the good fight, make darn sure you have the good guys on your side and abide by the law, which would not have been on your side if you had chosen to go after him. He would have been favored in the eyes of the law and, no doubt, had you gone after him, someone would have called the men in blue - but after you.
 

Sin

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Guy sounds like a real A hole. Notice the capital A.

Anywho...you did the right thing...................You did press charges right

at least you didn't have to sepend the night in jail and you got out of the situation with the least violence possible. And isn't that what we all strive for in the long run. Now I know the primal instincts to rip into this guy fist flying is there trust me...I've been there. its better in the long run to be the docile one.
 

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You wantt my opinion? Probably not, but I'm giving it anyway. :p

But hind sight is always 20/20, and when you are caught up in the moment you don't always make the right decisions.
I'm not going to "play" devil's advocate here, I'll just give it to you straight up. I echo the sentiments of most who have responed in that, for the most part, you acted appropriately. I pull the above quote because it resonates with me. The fact is, we don't always behave as we should.

So I'll be honest. I know myself well enough. What would I have done? You say that this happenned:

but then he took the mic and threw it at me
He could have hit your wife. For me, that's "heat of the moment" justification. Consequences be damned, nobody gets violent around my wife without hearing me having the last word. And that's it. My fuse is not easy to light, but it burns real quick. I would have gotten an apology from him and left, regardless of whether or not he was offering one. I would have gotten it.

Actually, it's possible that I too may have done the right thing instead, but it's less likely. Perhaps one day I will master my emotions. I have not yet.

:asian:
 

chinto01

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I think you did the right thing. It is a hard thing to walk away from an explosive situation but you handled it well. One bit of advice that was hard learned for you is never to turn your back to an agressor even if he does walk away. Keep your chin up and take this as a life lesson. Also beating him up may have satisfied your ego but it would have made you no better than him.
 

Rob Broad

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You did teh right thing by walking away, I would speak with the owner of the bar and ask why he didn't kick the fool and his friends out. I would also be looking at filing charges against the bar, since they are responsible for the actions of their intoxicated patrons.

I know you would have felt a little better or a second or two after popping the guy and possbily all his buddies, because that type of coward never fight fair, but you would have felt guilty later, and could possibly be charged. I would also go to the police station, and do a little complaining there. The officer should have removed everyone from the scene, and should normally take the word of a sober person out with friends, over a bunch of guys concocting a good story.
 
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red_herring

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People, please get real.The drunkard would have never sued anyone.To blame the bar for this situation is just immature.If you go to a place were are alot of drunk people then you have to understand that sometimes things like that happen.'clapping tiger' had a chance to walk away in the very beginning when he saw that the bar has not a pouncer or it looks strange, then he had the chance to ignore the insident and just leave, but he did not do it.He went over to this guy to argue.Lets look at the situation the other way...

"I was sitting with my friends and talking and then I noticed this fellow with his company.I was in good mood so I desided to pull a prank on this guy cause he sang terribly.So I walked over to this guy and showed him how its really done, then i walked away and threw him the mic.(like catch it)Soon afther I went to sit back down with my friends this guy came over and threatened me, i stood up then he pushed me i told him it was just a joke then he said something i dont know what and started doing something so i punched away cause i thought hes going to attack me again.Later on he called the cops....*and so on*"

It is totaly pointles to sue anyone you don't want to waste your nerves and time on going to the cort, you could use the time for training or working or getting yourself a hobby.Its pointles you won't win and you will make a fool out of yourself again(in front of yourself)

The situation was not so big and you don't solve problems like that with the law.Judges and the other people who have to do with things like that are hard working people too-why bother them with things like that?You can't just run and call the cops over every singel deatail."he called me fat...im going to sue him"Im a non american and for me this seems to be pretty childish.Here in europe people go to the cort over seriouse things what they can't solve on their own like mature people. Then again there is a old saying "people cry there were it pay's to cry"

I hope I did not offend anyone by expressing my idea on the situation.
My point is:If you don't want to fight then just go away.It is not possible to talk with drunk people.JUST avoid situations like that.If you get inside the situation like that then you should be able to get out of it on your own.Police can't be everywere.(thats why the police is called the THIN blue line)
Really just forget the situation and next time just avoid going to places like that or do the "wrong" thing and fight violance with violance.

thank you


Henri Fley
 

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