Do you shadow box in addition to doing Katas?
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jobo
Grandmaster
no, shodow boxing is about as useful as kata and i dont need two nearly useless things taking up my time.
i do however hit things,
Noah_Legel
Blue Belt
Not to the degree that boxers or kickboxers tend to shadowbox, but I don't think it's all that unusual for karateka to engage in similar practices. I see sport karateka do it all the time (mostly because they never hit anything for real, anyway), using their competition sparring techniques. With old-style karate, I find it is more common to see people "shadowbox" using various bits of kata, and variations on those movements, as the intent and context is different, meaning that we are visualizing attacks from untrained attackers, and how they might respond to our techniques. For that reason, you may not consider it "shadowboxing," because it doesn't look like the sport boxing/kickboxing methods you typically see. We also treat it much more as a sort of "filler" exercise, for when we don't have partners or training equipment around, I think, so it's not something we spend a lot of time on.
Yeah, maybe I should have been more precise. So meant shadow box a round or two
tigercrane
Yellow Belt
Shadow boxing practice is invaluable. It helps one to visualize the opponent, it teaches to develop “intent”, muscle memory and speed. Just look at most accomplished karate masters, all of them did shadow boxing. One example: Oyama Masutatsu, who spent considerable time in seclusion doing exactly that.
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tigercrane
Yellow Belt
I think you are accentuating “boxing” as literally just that. Unlike western boxing/kickboxing, Boxing is a general and very loose term for many classic fighting arts in China, Korea and Japan. A Chinese word “quan” means boxing, however Chinese and Okinawan karate systems are comprised primarily of grappling, joint manipulations, takedowns, punches and kicks. Okinawan karate is first and foremost a grappling art at its core. Most karate dojos never teach karate at the level of grappling, which is a shame. This brings me to the point of importance of “shadow boxing” in direct relation to karate: When a karate practitioner trains in shadow boxing, this means you practice and apply not just the uppercuts and swings, but you also execute many simulated joint manipulation techniques with exception of those that require two men to do drills. Lastly, check out Patrick McCarthy’s Koryu Uchinadi, which demonstrates the classic karate grappling, you’ll be amazed.
What do you think the difference between boxing and Karate? If you throw jab, hook, uppercut 3 steps 3 punches combo, what will you do differently in Karate than in boxing?
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tigercrane
Yellow Belt
Not sure who you posed this question to, but since Hanshi’s reply was quoted, I’ll let him answer that.
It's a general question for everybody.
What's the difference between a Karate punch and a boxing punch? If we use toolbox concept, a tool is just a tool. Whether you bought a hammer from Home Depot, or from Walmart, a hammer is just a hammer.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
the difference is large.. the mechanics of a western boxer punch and a traditional karate or chinese punch work different, to keep with the analogy its not about where you purchase the hammer but the trade in which you aim to apply the tool,, a ball peen wont pull nails, hammers are different for different applications. finish carpenter, framers, roofer, metal worker, mason all have differently designed hammers that match the task at hand.
people could say a punch is a punch and the task is to hurt someone, but that is like saying martial arts is nothing more than hitting things. its not a refined answer. the more granularity and clarity we bring to the topic the more refined the answer needs to be, the more different things become.
@tigercrane
i would argue that Tode is not grappling. but you would have to give your definition of grappling first. Chinese and Okinawan fighting has capture/ seize/ control, throw, but to try and correlate that to our current definition of grappling seems to be implying that karate at some imaginary point in time was equal to BJJ, and thats just not the case. no matter how many so called experts profess karate did hold all the secrets, this is nothing more than an insecurity on their part trying to exclaim to the word "hey i know BJJ is popular.. i can be special too" and creating applications (bunkai) that mock wrestling that never existed.
many will say, as counter point "well what about "Tegumi". well yeah what about it, maybe it was practiced in Okinawa but it would be a separate thing just like Sumo or Bokh. the fact that i wrestled with my friends back in the day of WWF and Hulk Hogan doesnt make it part of a syllabus of the karate i studied. even if i taught my students to jump off the top rope and yell "SUPER FLY". (obscure old school wrestling reference)
people could say a punch is a punch and the task is to hurt someone, but that is like saying martial arts is nothing more than hitting things. its not a refined answer. the more granularity and clarity we bring to the topic the more refined the answer needs to be, the more different things become.
@tigercrane
i would argue that Tode is not grappling. but you would have to give your definition of grappling first. Chinese and Okinawan fighting has capture/ seize/ control, throw, but to try and correlate that to our current definition of grappling seems to be implying that karate at some imaginary point in time was equal to BJJ, and thats just not the case. no matter how many so called experts profess karate did hold all the secrets, this is nothing more than an insecurity on their part trying to exclaim to the word "hey i know BJJ is popular.. i can be special too" and creating applications (bunkai) that mock wrestling that never existed.
many will say, as counter point "well what about "Tegumi". well yeah what about it, maybe it was practiced in Okinawa but it would be a separate thing just like Sumo or Bokh. the fact that i wrestled with my friends back in the day of WWF and Hulk Hogan doesnt make it part of a syllabus of the karate i studied. even if i taught my students to jump off the top rope and yell "SUPER FLY". (obscure old school wrestling reference)
hoshin1600
Senior Master
to answer the OP question,, yes i used to shadow box (to use that term) in the large wall mirrors to warm up before bag work or class.
tigercrane
Yellow Belt
........
tigercrane
Yellow Belt
I understand your argument about Tode, the Chinese Hand as not being viewed as grappling. I respectfully disagree. If we are to speak in direct reference and comparison to wrestling, then no, karate cannot be viewed as one, however if we were to look at most Chinese systems from which karate was molded, many if not most are heavily comprised of Chin na, a form of Chinese grappling that renders well to joint manipulation, joint locks, etc. When Miayagi, Higaonna and Uechi studied in China, they brought back with them almost complete systems that included grappling elements. Way before the above mentioned masters were even born, there had been the first 36 families that migrated from China to Ryu Kyu Islands in 1392. Arguably, these families brought with them family styles martial arts that already then included grappling. Many family styles had then become indigenous Okinawan martial arts. One such family is still remembered in Okinawa - the Kojo family which had taught a closed door family style of Tode (karate). Kojo style is so heavily influenced by grappling elements, it is seen in their kata. Later in 19th and 20th century the Kojo family taught their family members their own jujuitsu along with their main curriculum. Kojo family style of karate is almost exinct, that’s another story. In closing, I would answer your question on what I define as grappling. I define grappling as a system comprised of throws, takedowns, joint locks and other special techniques that involve very close and personal combat. In my opinion, wrestling is a form of grappling, however western wrestling simply does not have the depth of Chinese/Okinawan grappling systems. Thank you for for your input on this topic!
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
I agree and am happy to see another who understands what karate is.
Few people understand that true Okinawan karate is based on grabbing (seizing, not wrestling) and pulling with some twisting as you are punching or kicking. Hiki-te and tuite is the terminology referring to such actions. This performs several functions:
Breaks the opponent's balance
Pulls him into your strike
Turns the opponent out of position to land another strike
Opens up the opponent for your own strikes
Immobilizes the arm/hand
Causes damage to the tendons/joints
Allows you to safely enter
Most kata moves involve such techniques. This is the "secret" of Okinawan karate that many dojos and instructors are not well versed in. Often, when you turn in a kata, it is not to face a new opponent, but to drag the guy you're currently engaged with around. Karate has been criticized for "chambering" the non-punching hand at the hip. This hand is not taking a vacation, it has grabbed and pulled the attacker in. Okinawan karate does have much depth.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
Good post and well informed. But its nothing I already didn't know. Thus in my other post I said karate included capture/seize/ control and throw which i could have just as easily said Chin-na but I thought breaking it down to the four categories would be better understood.
While these classified actions are found in grappling arts as well as Tode I would not go so far as to say that Tode is grappling. You cannot define an art by merely its technique. As an analogy music may contain the pentatonic scale, but no one would confuse Jazz with country or Spanish classical guitar. There is more going on that makes a style a style beyond technique. From that perspective Tode is not a grappling art even with a heavy Chin-na base. I would also point put in China Eagle Claw and those styles that are predominate Chinna based still use the defining word Boxing as a descriptor not Shuai Jiao
hoshin1600
Senior Master
@tigercrane
After some thought I have a lot more I could say on this because my thinking was incorrect, same possible outcome however. I think we hijacked this thread enough and this topic deserves its own thread. Please feel free to start one or I can later.
After some thought I have a lot more I could say on this because my thinking was incorrect, same possible outcome however. I think we hijacked this thread enough and this topic deserves its own thread. Please feel free to start one or I can later.
Kata is shadowboxing. Just different disciplines and methods.
