Do Vs. Ju

[Mary Chant]

I have a question that came to me when reading another thread, and so I wanted to post it. I want to know what people's thoughts are on the difference between Do and Ju, and how, or if having Do at the end makes a style different than if Ju were at the end. I've understood that the "do" styles (as oppsosed to the "ju") are more focused on the completeness of the individual and his/her character, as well as combat, whereas the "ju" are more focused on the lethality and combat, and not on the more intangible aspects. I really hope I am not "stepping in it" and mean no disrespect to anyone. I would just like to hear people's thoughts on this subject.

Thank you.

Mary Chant

 

[Steel Tiger]

This is a Japanese dichotomy that I find quite interesting. The actual difference lies between the suffixes jutsu and do. Jutsu is best translated as 'art' whereas do translates as 'way'. Examples would be kenjustu and kendo, and jujutsu and judo. There is a general belief that the change to a "do" suffix implies a softening of the style. Taking away its combative edge.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Just ask the poineers of Judo. I think that the truth lies in the tightening grip of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the seventeenth century. It may have been perceived as a way to avoid suppression by the government. I don't know for sure.

 

[thetruth]

Which Styles have Ju at the end?


Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Doc_Jude]

Which Styles have Ju at the end?

I think it was intended to be -jutsu & not just -ju.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I think it was intended to be -jutsu & not just -ju.

Agreed.

On topic however, there is ultmately little differnce. Then again, there is ultmately little differnce between western boxing and Judo. Anyways.
A "do" style is considered modern, but doesn't have to be (depends on your diffenition of modern). These styles tend to empasise making a person whole, philosophy, and sometimes sport. However, they are no less combat applicale.
A "Jitsu" style is more focused on combat, and is considered a "traditional" style, but deosn't have to be. Jistu styles tend to be more focused on the quick elmination of an opponent, and are generally focus around one specific wepaon/method of using a weapon. For enstince, Jo-Jitsu (method of employing a walking stick), Kyo-Jistu (method of employing a Japanese long bow), so forth and so on.

 

[zDom]

Given our focus on being effective in personal combat, for a long while I began to think our Moo Sul Kwan hapkido should be called "hapkijutsu" (or actually, that would be hapkisul, wouldn't it? I think SOME schools actually have amended the suffix).

But then I began noticing all the ways hapkido has become part of my entire life, that my hapkido — while being brutally effective — is MORE than just fighting techniques. It has become a way of approaching life.

And THAT is what, IMO, a "-do" is all about (or should be).

A "-do" is not necessarily a watering down of a jutsu; it is often jutsu-PLUS.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's an interesting perspective, Dom and one that, from the iaido perspective, I can agree with.

At present, with only a handful of years practise under my belt (yeah, MA pun attack! ) I'm still very much in what might be considered the '-jutsu' period of my training as I'm still bolting down the techniques and applications.

But I am aware that there are wider implications that grow within the forms such that the practise of the art of swordsmanship leads to a way of thinking that has avoidance of having to use the sword at its core. Hence, iaido rather than iaijutsu.

Of course, another, more prosaic delineation that is sometimes drawn (another on-topic pun! I'm on form today ) is that iaido is civilian and iaijutsu military, or iaido unarmoured 'in the street' and iaijutsu armoured in the field (civilian versus battlefield environments).

 

[Kacey]

Given our focus on being effective in personal combat, for a long while I began to think our Moo Sul Kwan hapkido should be called "hapkijutsu" (or actually, that would be hapkisul, wouldn't it? I think SOME schools actually have amended the suffix).

But then I began noticing all the ways hapkido has become part of my entire life, that my hapkido — while being brutally effective — is MORE than just fighting techniques. It has become a way of approaching life.

And THAT is what, IMO, a "-do" is all about (or should be).

A "-do" is not necessarily a watering down of a jutsu; it is often jutsu-PLUS.

This perspective fits in with what I was taught about the difference between jutsu and do: jutsu is the way/method of combat, while do is the way of life - and find that TKD has affected the way I live my life far beyond merely learning techniques for combat... after all, even the best combatants have a life off the battlefield, whatever that battlefield looks like - and though I realize many people disagree with this, as an instructor, I feel I have an obligation to teach my students when to use their skills - and when not to use them - as much as how to use them. The when is where the "do" adds to the how of the "jutsu"

 

[Sukerkin]

A marvellous thumbnail sketch of the difference there, Kacey - I shall of course pinch that and use it from now on claiming it to be my own thinking :lol:.

I can't rep you for such a good, concise, definition as the Gnome Guardians say I must 'spread the love' around a bit first - but consider this an IOU.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Agreed.

On topic however, there is ultmately little differnce. Then again, there is ultmately little differnce between western boxing and Judo. Anyways.
A "do" style is considered modern, but doesn't have to be (depends on your diffenition of modern). These styles tend to empasise making a person whole, philosophy, and sometimes sport. However, they are no less combat applicale.
A "Jitsu" style is more focused on combat, and is considered a "traditional" style, but deosn't have to be. Jistu styles tend to be more focused on the quick elmination of an opponent, and are generally focus around one specific wepaon/method of using a weapon. For enstince, Jo-Jitsu (method of employing a walking stick), Kyo-Jistu (method of employing a Japanese long bow), so forth and so on.

Kyojutsu is tricky Ninja stuff, KYUJUTSU is longbow methods.

 

[Mary Chant]

Yes, I did mean jutsu. Sometimes my brain disengages before my fingers finish typing. I value all of your comments. It feels like a coffee in the living room after working out discussion, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Mary Chant

 

[Kreth]

Kyojutsu is tricky Ninja stuff, KYUJUTSU is longbow methods.

Actually, kyojitsu is the tricky ninja stuff...

 

[Doc_Jude]

Actually, kyojitsu is the tricky ninja stuff...

grrrrrrr.....


DAMMIT!!!

 

[still learning]

Hello, A JU or DO or christen? Is it so important? It is just a part of the NAME.

It has meaning...but most arts teach the fighting aspects as well as human side of kindness. Be JU or become the DO....aah!

Look around and see the many names of martial arts schools and systems?

Having a real good sounding names helps in getting more students?

Name: DO-JU-SA-SO....off course he can! ......(making DO-DO) or (JU-JU)

AAH! JU-DO this is a good name! ................Aloha

 

[Monadnock]

It can be just a name difference or manifest in kata differences as well. One example, I beleive Shimizu Sensei went with the term Jodo over Jo Jutsu to follow the trend in the early start of the 20th century of other arts becoming -Do, like Judo. I do not think there were any significant changes in the actual training -- but then, I wasn't there.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Kyojutsu is tricky Ninja stuff, KYUJUTSU is longbow methods.

Yah, thats the one. My Japanese kinda sucks.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Jutsu does not meerly mean "art", it means "art of war".

I do Jujutsu, I love Judo, but one is for the battlefeild and the other is for the Dojo, not that it does not have it's uses in the street.

 

[zDom]

Jutsu does not meerly mean "art", it means "art of war".

Wouldn't "warrior art" be better translation, as far as the English side of things?

"Art of War" would seem, to me, to imply more of a strategic level, as in what general would use, as opposed to what a battlefield warrior would use.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Jutsu does not meerly mean "art", it means "art of war".

I do Jujutsu, I love Judo, but one is for the battlefeild and the other is for the Dojo, not that it does not have it's uses in the street.

I'm no expert in the japanese language but I will share some of what I know.

Jutsu translates skill or art.
Do translates to Way or Path.

To say war arts you must add the preffix Bu (which translates to war) to make Bujutsu.
Conversely Budo translates to way of war.
Shi translates to scholar or master as in highly skilled, exemplary.
Bushi translates to warrior scholar.
Bushido translates to way of the warrior.
I've never heard the term Bushijutsu but it would translate to Art of the Warior.

The disctinction made between Do & Jutsu began when Japan moved into the modern era and the Koryu (Old School) Methods became archaic and outdated, even illegal or heavily regulated in Japan.

Jujutsu (Gentle Art) was the name for the Samurai's hand to hand method to complement their weapon skills. The objective of Jujutsu techniques was to kill or keep yourself from getting killed.

Judo (Gentle Way) is the name for a sport developed by Jigoro Kano from techniques collected from a number of Jujutsu schools. The objective of Judo is to develop fitness, self defense skills, and win competitions.

Aikijutsu is a pretty brutal and deadly form of Jujutsu.
Aikido is a very soft style developed to defend yourself without hurting your attacker.

Karate-Do (empty hand way) was a term developed by Ginchin Funakoshi to "market" Okinawan Kempo to the Japanese people. The term Karate was favored over the term Kempo (Fist Law) to distinguish the art it from it's roots in chinese Chuan Fa. Whatever you call it Karate, Okinawan Te (hand), or Okinawan Kempo - it has no battlefield jutsu roots in Japan. Although, according to an article written by Jigoro Kano, Kempo was a term used to describe the unarmed tactics of the Samurai in addition to Yawara, Kumichi, & Jujutsu. Though most will agree that the focus of these arts was mostly grappling but they did include Atemi (striking).

It's relevant and interesting so I'll post links to the article by Jigoro Kano.

Part one of the Jigoro Kano Article.
Part two of the Jigoro Kano Article.

_Don Flatt

 

[Ybot]

It is my understanding that the difference is that through the study of a -do art you are suppose to derive some greater truth of existence, life, etc. Where as a -jutsu/-jitsu style basically you are learning a skill.

-do is like Tao (or Dao) as in Taoism. -do arts are one way of connecting with the tao or the way of the universe.