Defense against knife

[Bigshadow]

Hello, I thought I would start a thread about a couple of topics (maybe I should have made 2 threads) but this is a result of last night's training and it revolved around a couple of situations I had been reading about. We had a small class last night, so I made a couple of suggestion of things to work from. Ironically, all the things we worked on had very similar feelings and principles. Anyway, I thought I would share my thoughts regarding the training and hopefully spark some discussion about the topic as it relates to the Bujinkan (but anyone is welcomed to post).

Last night's training was particularly interesting. Yesterday, I had read a couple of threads on here (not in the Ninjutsu forum) about "Sucker Punches" and another about defense against a knife attack. So when the instructor asked us if there were anything in particular we would like to work on, I had a couple of things that I would like to do. First, although, I felt the "sucker punch" thing was a real no brainer, I thought it interesting about some of the ways an attack could come. For instance one of particular interest that I wanted to play around with was the "hand shake/punch" combo.

When working on the "handshake/punch" combo, it was not diffucult at all to get out of the way of the punch. However, what was really evident, was that it is NO different than what we had been doing with other punches. I suspect that alot of the underlying issues in the "sucker punch" thread centers around how to deal with the tug that happens with the handshake to make the punch connect. This is where being relaxed and sensitive comes into play as most people are going to immediately try to recoil and resist the tug rather than just flow with it. By recoiling and tugging it seems to puts the victim at the right distance needed for the punch, but flowing into the tug totally screws up the distance needed to make contact. Of course there are other dynamics that happens, causing the attacker's balance and structure to be easily destroyed.

After working on that for awhile, the instructor asked if there was anything else... We have worked with knife attacks often, but I thought it would be fun to play around with the knife again. So as we were getting started, a fellow dropped by who had trained with us a few times. He has quite a bit of training in MA (kali, bjj, kickboxing, tkd, and a few other things). He is also a prison guard at a high security prison. During the course of his work he has seen some serious shank attacks and this is something that is a big concern of his. He was gracious enough to show us some of the attacks that he has seen. I will say that most of what he showed us (as an attack) were surprise attacks, very violent, and explosive. It can also be quite intimidating to see someone that looks like and is the size of "The Rock" attacking like a prison inmate would. LOL Anyway, we started breaking down the attacks and working on them and it didn't take long to see that it is the "same" as what we have been doing. Incidentally, a common surprise knife or shank attack is from a handshake and the attack comes quickly and violently. However, it turned out the same principles and feeling of the sucker punch was here with this attack as well.

It was evident quickly that dealing with these attacks are no different than dealing with any other knife attack. All the same principles apply (Proper distance, timing, knife point, etc).

Anyway, I just thought I would open up a thread for discussion about knife training from a Bujinkan perspective.

 

[rutherford]

One of the things I've noticed in the basic knife defenses I've been shown is the committed nature of the defense. While simple, the work seems best against a committed attacker and when there is total commitment on a very sudden and violent response to the attack.

I found this very different from much of the other stuff we do.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.

I died every time.
That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?

 

[Bigshadow]

One of the things I've noticed in the basic knife defenses I've been shown is the committed nature of the defense. While simple, the work seems best against a committed attacker and when there is total commitment on a very sudden and violent response to the attack.

I found this very different from much of the other stuff we do.

If I understand you correctly, I think I would agree that the attacker being committed to the attack is important. However, if one is not committed to the attack, we may have to, let's say, bait them into committing, if necessary.

It seems when I have trained and the attacker is not committed, I am often not in any serious danger of being hurt. I would think someone has to be "committed" to the attack. Otherwise, it wouldn't be an attack, no?

 

[rutherford]

No. I'm talking more about how a skilled knife wielder can and will often change the direction of the attack or feint to a greater extent and more quickly than a striker.

Comes from the properties of the weapon. You don't need to hit all that hard to cause a lot of damage with a knife.

 

[Bigshadow]

I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.

I died every time.
That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?

No, it isn't supposed to work that way....

You said, all-out.... I get the feeling from the tone of the message that it was at full speed. If so, was this training or trying to measure where you are at with your training?

 

[Bigshadow]

No. I'm talking more about how a skilled knife wielder can and will often change the direction of the attack or feint to a greater extent and more quickly than a striker.

Comes from the properties of the weapon. You don't need to hit all that hard to cause a lot of damage with a knife.

I see. Yes, those are other factors as well. The thing to recognize is that the feint is no danger. Not that I can do it consistently, based on where I am in my training. But... It seems to me that the issue with that situation is recognizing the feint. I think the key to this is the spine. It is having an acute awareness of distance. No matter how the arms are flailing about or moving about, one must be aware of the distance between the attacker's spine and the defender's spine. This is the key distance to be observed and controlled.

Right now, I do find it very difficult to not get mesmerized by all the movement and be aware of the critical distance with all the moving around. It takes time to learn. That is why we all train. My point being, is that it is there, we just have to be able to first "see" it, then we have to train our bodies to do it.

My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train. Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You said, all-out.... I get the feeling from the tone of the message that it was at full speed. If so, was this training or trying to measure where you are at with your training?

Ask him, not me. In any case, I tried all grips and all possible angles of attack. BTW, elbows move slower than hands...*hint hint*

 

[Bigshadow]

Ask him, not me. In any case, I tried all grips and all possible angles of attack. BTW, elbows move slower than hands...*hint hint*

I am confused.... You were the attacker or defender? My general point was this stuff undoubtably works, contrary to what some want to say about the Bujinkan. I hope you were not thinking that I was infering otherwise.


As for the elbows, yes, I would agree (if I understood what you meant by what you said). The attacks demonstrated last night were with the elbows tucked close to the body. As an uke, I often attack in a similar fashion because I am trying to keep myself covered as well. Throwing the arm way out to make a cut (opening yourself up) is not a good habit to get into. So when I am in uke mode, I am thinking how can I attack this person without exposing too much and of course sticking to the lesson. My behavior is all relative to how experienced the tori is.

With the elbows in close to the body the cuts, slashes, tsuki, is much smaller (also faster at full speed). The caveat is that you have to get closer to cut while keep the elbows in.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was the attacker, as indicated by my last post.

And no, that wasn't what I was getting at. People are often dazzled by the speed with which a knife-wielding attacker's weapon hand moves. But his elbow isn't moving nearly as fast. Classic shinkengata principle.

 

[Bigshadow]

I was the attacker, as indicated by my last post.

I picked up on that in your last post, but it was contrary to what I thought you meant from your first post. Sorry, missed that one.

And no, that wasn't what I was getting at. People are often dazzled by the speed with which a knife-wielding attacker's weapon hand moves. But his elbow isn't moving nearly as fast. Classic shinkengata principle.

I see, yes, very true!

 

[Dale Seago]

I think the key to this is the spine. It is having an acute awareness of distance. No matter how the arms are flailing about or moving about, one must be aware of the distance between the attacker's spine and the defender's spine. This is the key distance to be observed and controlled.

Right now, I do find it very difficult to not get mesmerized by all the movement and be aware of the critical distance with all the moving around. It takes time to learn. That is why we all train. My point being, is that it is there, we just have to be able to first "see" it, then we have to train our bodies to do it.

My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train. Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.

Yes -- Bravo!!!! Big-**** thumbs up!

 

[Kreth]

I have a couple of the rubber training knives from Cold Steel. Chalking the knives and then a bit of randori can be very humbling...

 

[Bigshadow]

I have a couple of the rubber training knives from Cold Steel. Chalking the knives and then a bit of randori can be very humbling...

Lately, I have been thinking of grabbing the wife's liptstick and taking it with me to training to put on the edges of the training knives. (I am sure she would be happy about that :O) LOL

After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used. I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that. :idunno: I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at. But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.

Maybe someone can shed some more light on that approach.

Just thinking aloud on this.

 

[rutherford]

And then you see guys who will accelerate the motions of one hand by giving a quick slap with the other hand. In my experience, Silat players do this a lot.

 

[Kreth]

After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used. I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that. :idunno: I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at. But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.

I see it as more of a gauge, not an everyday thing. I like to use the soft carpenter's chalk, and apply it heavily to the blade of the knife. A soft touch will cause a blot of chalk, where an actual solid slash will show up as a more sharply defined line. Obviously, as you mentioned, thickness of clothing and other factors have to be taken into account. Also, you have to make sure that the participants don't start "point sparring." This type of drill is often best after you have shown several static techniques.

 

[arnisador]

After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used.

True, but...while a small folding knife may not cut through a leather jacket very easily, a Rambo knife certainly will...and you can stab a knife through a bulletproof vest (some discussion downthread here). It's true that the chalk may get on your shirt when you're doing a reasonably safe disarm that brings your hand/arm near the blade, but for the most part, I think it's useful to train to avoid the edge. Even in a jacket and against a small blade, you can get cut! You can always focus just on blocks and see how it goes. It should be educational! Also check out things like the No Lie training blades and the Shockknife.

 

[arnisador]

And then you see guys who will accelerate the motions of one hand by giving a quick slap with the other hand. In my experience, Silat players do this a lot.

You also see it in the FMA, especially with some swordwork.

 

[Connovar]

[

My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train. Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.

Rule of thumb: If it takes more that a dozen practice moves starting from slow to full speed to learn it is to complex and to fine motor to be reliable.

Most people who really want to gut you arent going to announce desires and intent. You might very well get stabbed once or twice before you know it happens. I have friends who have been knifed and didnt know it till afterwards. These just knew it never over untills it over and you just keep on fighting.

 

[Don Roley]

[

Rule of thumb: If it takes more that a dozen practice moves starting from slow to full speed to learn it is to complex and to fine motor to be reliable.

Check the original quote, that is not what is being said. Slowing something down to fully understand it is not the same as what you say.