Cross-training Aikido and another art

[Swordlady]

I've been taking Aikido for almost a month now, and feel like I'm starting to get some grasp of the basic techniques. However, I've run into a problem. It seems like my Aikido training is interfering a little with my YSKR training. Apparently, my YSKR stance has been a bit *off* the past couple weeks. One of the yudansha commented that ever since I started taking Aikido, my stance has been more "forward" than necessary.

I don't think that my cross-training is that much of a problem yet, but I'm thinking that it *might* further down the road. I decided to take Aikido, because I wanted to complement my JSA training - not completely overwhelm it. But since I take Aikido far more frequently than YSKR (which only meets once a week), I am started to get a little concerned that both arts are going to clash.

Has anyone else cross-trained Aikido and another art? How successful were you at keeping both arts separate from each other? Or did you find them "complementing" each other?

 

[KOROHO]

I have, and I get the same problems.
I believe you are training in Yoshinkan, correct?

In kamae, you have your feet slightly turned out and usually in-line.
In our Muso Shinden Ryu, the feet are not in-line but less than shoulder-width, with the feet turned slightly in. So when I see my MSR teacher, he is always telling me "turn the feet in". Then after a few intensive days of that, I go back to Aikido and Sensei says "turn your feet out".

I don't know of any iaido/kenjutsu style that sahres common stances with Yoshinkan, so perhaps there is no perfect match where you don't have to worry about this type of conflict. The only way around it is practice and try to get to a point where your body knows what class your in as well as your mind does.

My Aikido is well complimented by the Judo, Hakko Ryu and Shito Ryu that we do. But the Iai seems to really be a conflict.

 

[barnaby]

I have a student in my Wing Chun class who is cross training from Aikido. Wing Chun uses mostly short stances, with feet turned slightly in -- an obvious contrast for him. He has had some confusion to be sure, and what I like to tell him is that it's his to reconcile. I really believe that there is a strong point to my Sifu's attitude, that cross-training is destructive in general, for exactly the sort of postural conflicts that I see in my student, and am hearing from you, but also think that a dedicated martial artist is capable of combining concepts in a way that fits his or her body, over time. it could be this increases the time needed in general on both arts. please continue to report if you decide to stick to both arts (I'm not sure what the other art is you're referring to, to be honest).

 

[KOROHO]

...but also think that a dedicated martial artist is capable of combining concepts in a way that fits his or her body, over time. it could be this increases the time needed in general on both arts....

This is true. Cross-training, especially in such different / non-complimentary arts, will slow your progress in both.

What is odd, is that for some reason I seem to be able to shift from Karate stances to Aikido stances quite fluidly - but I have real difficulty with the Iai and Yoshinkan stances. I put together some drills where I start in a back stance and step back and forth, shifting stances, varying between front, back, horse stance and Yoshinkan Kamae.

Also, I began teaching a Taichi class a couple of months ago, and some Aikido foot positioning accidentally slipped in. I didn't realize it until I saw one of the students feet turned out ala Yoshinkan. She said she was just following the way I did it. I've been paying closer attention and every once in a while, while doing the "Ba Men" form, I look down and see my "Aikido feet".

 

[Swordlady]

Ah...sorry for the confusion. I'm not training in Yoshikan. YSKR = Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu. I've been training in this particular JSA for a bit over 1.5 years. The "default" stance in YSKR is to have both feet facing forward or slightly pointed out, about shoulder's width apart, and the body weight equally distributed between both legs. Someone should not be able to topple you over with a small push, which is an indicator that you are standing correctly.

 

[KOROHO]

Sorry, I assumed you were training in Yoshinkan.
Are you not doing Aikido with Manogue Sensei? Or is he not teaching Yoshinkan? I know he trained in Yoshinkan and I think he spent some time with my teacher Utada Sensei.

I suspect you will still have the same problems with the more modern Aikido stances though.

I should also mention that I trained in Kokikai Aikido for about 4 months. I stopped training there mainly because of the stances and foot work were causing me problems in other areas. I was not doing Iaido yet. Bit it was messing up my Judo. This slipped my mind when I was posting before.

There are plusses and minuses to cross-training. You just have to make your choices and decide what's more important.

Had I not spent so much time cross training, I would be well past where I am in Karate, and perhaps even more advanced rank in Aikido. But I like having an understanding of how all the arts relate and persuing the idea of Sogo Budo. Others like to spend thier time perfecting a single art.

 

[Kensai]

I have a student in my Wing Chun class who is cross training from Aikido. Wing Chun uses mostly short stances, with feet turned slightly in -- an obvious contrast for him. He has had some confusion to be sure, and what I like to tell him is that it's his to reconcile. I really believe that there is a strong point to my Sifu's attitude, that cross-training is destructive in general, for exactly the sort of postural conflicts that I see in my student, and am hearing from you, but also think that a dedicated martial artist is capable of combining concepts in a way that fits his or her body, over time. it could be this increases the time needed in general on both arts. please continue to report if you decide to stick to both arts (I'm not sure what the other art is you're referring to, to be honest).

I do Wing Chun as my main art, and have just started doing Aiki, I don't see a problem with cross training these two arts, and I actually happen to think that they are complementary. If the chance presents itself to Wing Chun some attackers face into the ground for starting on me, then I will, if there are circumstances whereby weapons are used, then it's Aikido all the way. I think... Of course, it's early days, so I'll shut up now, and carry on learning. :asian:

 

[amir]

Each person takes this differently. Some people can learn two languages at the same time without confusing them, some can learn two different M.A. without a problem.

Personaly, When after ~3.5 years of Aikido I tried doing some Karate, my Aikido was affected and I became more rigid. Even thoug I practiced with the same teacher. I left the Karate and remained in Aikido.

Then, after ~10 rs of Aikido, I practiced TKD. My Aikido only benefited from this, as the new experiance assited me in better understanding Aikido. But, the TKD teacher could see my Aikido experiance in every move I did, from the stance, to the flow of Kata (no sharp Kime, etc.), this continued for the 2+ yrs of racticing until I once again had to leave the TKD (the Aikido remained).

I guess I am not gifted enough to seperate. But I do know my major M.A. is Aikido, and I am willing to learn other M.A. even though they will forever be affected by my Aikido.

Amir

 

[Aikironin]

I avoided cross training like the plague, as most beginners, who try to put to much on their plate, it all gets to be a jumbled mess, with most people quitting all the arts. I did Aikido solid for 13 years before eventually venturing into Shindo Muso Ryu, and Jikiden Eishin Muso Ryu, and that was an easier transititon to make after awhile, but at first it was a big pain, as I thought it would translate over a lot easier than it did. I try to steer people away from X training as a rule. But conversely I X trained in Aikido constantly, Aikikai, Nishio, Saito, Saotomi, AAA, ASU, Ki Society, Aiki Budo and Daito Ryu just to see how it all "fit" and that I do recommend to everyone to do. Although don't expect to make rank doing it though, you will gain valuable experience but rankwise you will end up about 3 years behind you peers. So if that matters to you, don't do it.

 

[Cirdan]

At the Katori Shinto Ryu school I trained with it was quite common to cross train in Aikido. Many of the instrucors held Dan ranks in both arts (as does the Grand master).

 

[Aikironin]

I have found though as Cirdan just pointed out, there seems to be a dispprotionate amount of aikidoka in the Koryu. Aikido seems IMHO to be the gateway to the koryu as Aikido itself has somewhat one foot in the past, and one foot in the present.

 

[Thewayofthewarriorispeace]

Hmm..interesting. I have been debating on cross training in Aikido/Jujitsu to supplement my Wing Chun (that is , to get a better idea of ground grappling and throws/takedowns) But now that I see this, Im starting to think it would be better to just get really good at Wing Chun/Chin Na, then later further my study into Aikido/Jujitsu. Which, come to think of it, Chin Na is actually very similiar to Aikido only the techniques are applied in a more straight line fashion vs. the wide circular movements of Aikido.

At any rate, I know it is possible to become very good in more than one art- my Sifu is Shihan rank in Aikido, has been studying Jujitsu since he was 7, and is also a Senior Master in Wing Chun, which he has been studying since he was 18 or so, not to mention his extensive knowledge of Qigong and Chin Na, as well as a good understanding of several other arts. He says martial arts is all about sacrifice, and being willing to learn from everybody. Without this open mindset I doubt he would be the amazing martial artist he is today...

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Personally I figure with regards Aikido a person is better off getting a solid grounding in another combat style, and then taking up Aikido. Makes it alot easier to use, and see where to use it.

 

[Aikironin]

Personally I figure with regards Aikido a person is better off getting a solid grounding in another combat style, and then taking up Aikido. Makes it alot easier to use, and see where to use it.

use it where?
I train/teach aikido for quite awhile now, and I also do: BJJ, SMR and Iai as well, but I do all independent of one another. I wouldn't denigrate any of those arts by "combining them" in some sort of synthesized system, that is all to common for American practitioners to do. I.e. Iai or SMR with a weapon in hand, than transition to aikido for empty handed techniques, followed by BJJ if it "goes to the ground". Now when I first started training, I thought that that would be something I would need. Now I kind of know better.

 

[Hand Sword]

Personally I figure with regards Aikido a person is better off getting a solid grounding in another combat style, and then taking up Aikido. Makes it alot easier to use, and see where to use it.

Aikidoka can handle themselves fine with their techniques. As with the other systems, it takes time and practice. That time and practice should be spent doing Aikido techniques. The other styles use methods of dealing with an attack, completely different than Aikido. Training that way doesn't help in developing Aikido skills. As for cross- training, I would look at it as infusing bits and pieces of other styles into your Aikido.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Aikidoka can handle themselves fine with their techniques. As with the other systems, it takes time and practice. That time and practice should be spent doing Aikido techniques. The other styles use methods of dealing with an attack, completely different than Aikido. Training that way doesn't help in developing Aikido skills. As for cross- training, I would look at it as infusing bits and pieces of other styles into your Aikido.

The use of other styles is helpful mainly because Aikido rarely trains in how to attack correctly. While O'Sensei himself emphasized the importance of Atemi, most aikido dojo's seem to rarely practice it, or if they do, it is done in the form of stylised formal attacks.
Since the type of force and movement in these strikes is far different from what a person would encounter in a modern day self defence situation, it means that it is very difficult to adapt Aikido to deal with it genuine attacks.
To my mind for an art such as Aikido which focuses on the re-direction of force, it is absolutely neccessary that a person understands the proper mechanics of creating force in the first place.
After all, its very difficult to defend against an attack if you don't understand how that attack works right?

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

use it where?
I train/teach aikido for quite awhile now, and I also do: BJJ, SMR and Iai as well, but I do all independent of one another. I wouldn't denigrate any of those arts by "combining them" in some sort of synthesized system, that is all to common for American practitioners to do. I.e. Iai or SMR with a weapon in hand, than transition to aikido for empty handed techniques, followed by BJJ if it "goes to the ground". Now when I first started training, I thought that that would be something I would need. Now I kind of know better.

How does it denigrate the art to use what is most effective for a given situation?

 

[Aikironin]

given situations that more often than not will never occur. It tends to belittle the founders of those arts original intention. Martial Arts as Self Defense, is a relatively new and somewhat western in its approach. Kano, Funakoshi, Ueshiba, all could have really cared less about self defense, their main ideal was to produce better japanese people "yamato Damashii" Not skilled street fighters. This was one of Kano's great gifts as, Jujutsu up to that point was seen as an art practiced by hoods or ruffians. It was Kano that systemized/stylized them with a European ideal of physical strength=moral strength. Look at Ueshiba post WWII very much the same, when he referred to Aikido as the "Second Bridge" If we take these ideas out of the arts and just go for technique x for situation Y, you have essentially denigrated the art. There is a difference between BuDO and BuJUTSU. Most arts today are BUDO that we think could be a Bujutsu but that is beyond oversimplification.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

given situations that more often than not will never occur. It tends to belittle the founders of those arts original intention. Martial Arts as Self Defense, is a relatively new and somewhat western in its approach. Kano, Funakoshi, Ueshiba, all could have really cared less about self defense, their main ideal was to produce better japanese people "yamato Damashii" Not skilled street fighters. This was one of Kano's great gifts as, Jujutsu up to that point was seen as an art practiced by hoods or ruffians. It was Kano that systemized/stylized them with a European ideal of physical strength=moral strength. Look at Ueshiba post WWII very much the same, when he referred to Aikido as the "Second Bridge" If we take these ideas out of the arts and just go for technique x for situation Y, you have essentially denigrated the art. There is a difference between BuDO and BuJUTSU. Most arts today are BUDO that we think could be a Bujutsu but that is beyond oversimplification.

How does it belittle their way that I choose to find my own? I choose to test and compare and see what works best for me, because I personally enjoy it, and enjoy training that way. Does this make me less spiritual as a person? No, Im a practicing Zen Buddhist, and my actions could thus be considered an affirmation of my spirituality, since Im finding my own way and following my own feelings, rather than following a path set by another.
This is in no way insults those who created those ways however.

 

[tempus]

The idea of training in martial arts for self defense is training for situations that you hope never occur. I think the founders would be happy if you learned mutiple styles and were able to use them to defend yourself in a situation. "It is better to know it and not need it, then to need it and not have it."

If you go to the root of most martial arts they all started for the same reason and that was to survive on the battlefield. Not sure I understand how you make better people when you are showing them ways to subdue, throw, maim, break and kill? I think you would teach them meditation, philosphy, reading, writing, etc...