Controversial thoughts on Japanese Karate from a military veteran

Franc0 · Mar 24, 2006

I work as an administrator at a facility that houses and rehabs homeless U.S. military veterans. Last night I was having a martial arts related conversation with one of the vets who studied Shotokan, and he came up with a pretty stupid statement. He said something to the tune of "I studied under a real Japanese Sensei, and if a martial art style can't trace it's roots back to Japan, then it's not legit." Seeing as how my studies are based on Chinese, Indonesian & Russian systems, I pretty much blew it off as plain ignorance. Then, a 2nd older (way older) vet from WW2 who was standing nearby came up and said to the 1st vet "Your grandfather must be turning in his grave the way you stick your nose up Japanese ***!!" They knew each other and the 1st vets grandfather served in the Pacific in WW2. He went on to say "Don't you realise the atrocities that the Japanese did to American soldiers? Why would you, as an American military veteran cowtow and kiss *** to the Japs with this karate s**t?" The 1st vet's reply to this was something like "Well, that was WW2, which was a long time ago. We've learned to move on and not hold a grudge."
This reply made the older vet really mad, and he shot back with "Oh yeah?!? Well if your so willing to move on and not hold a grudge, then why don't you just go full circle and take up Nazi martial arts too?!?" I thought that comment was kinda funny, but the old guy was so pissed off his face turned red, so I told the other guy to go back to his room before he makes the old vet suffer a heart attack.

Another one of the administrators was there with me when this happened, and he looked at me and said "you know why old Joe got so upset don't you? He's a Japanese POW survivor, who saw alot of his friends die at the hands of the Japs". It kinda made me wonder about the difference between how most people view the following of a different countries history and culture. Neo Nazis' are basically looked down upon by the American public, yet no one thinks twice about someone who embraces the culture of their former allies. Now don't get me wrong, I don't follow or embrace either one, but it does make one wonder. Any thoughts?

Franco

mrhnau · Mar 24, 2006

Interesting... go to Germany and talk about the Nazis, there is not alot of public support. Quite the opposite. Embracing a country does not imply that you embrace a previous political system. The US considers Germany a form of ally (well, sort of). Does that mean we embrace the Nazi's? Hardly. I don't think Neo-Nazis are representative of Germany today. We would look down on other such groups (KKK, Black Panthers, ELF, any other inherently violent and anti-social groups) Germany and Japan have changed alot since WW2.

The political systems of each country has changed quite a bit... would you study some form of Iraqi martial art? how about a Vietnamese martial art?

now, with regard to holding a grudge, I imagine its hard to let go of... my grandfather was a POW in Germany for a few days... did not deal with the type of torture or murder in Japan or Viet Nam. Thats got to be so difficult to deal with. My respect for those who suffered and died for our freedom :asian:

Edmund BlackAdder · Mar 24, 2006

The hatred was instilled deep in that generation, sometimes from good cause. It is hard to let it go. I've talked with many veterans, and the ones who were POW often still bear the grudges from 50 years ago, and the anger is as fresh today as it was then, but today it is not tempered with the strength of maturity it once was.

I can study a system, an art, a style, without admiring the politics, culture or mannerisms of the core group.

Franc0 · Mar 24, 2006

Good points guys, and I agree with you. You can study their "modern" culture through the martial arts, without having to embrace their old ways of political thought. I was talking with a buddy about that, and he brought up another interesting point. There are some who totally embrace the older cultures of other countries via their MA's, by dressing in their clothes, eating only their foods, and sometimes even adopting their mannerisms. I've actually seen this, as I'm sure some of you have also. Though Nazism is still around today, it is looked down upon by the general public, whether it be Germans or Americans. But the code of "Bushido", which was very much a part of the Japanese soldiers culture during WW2, is admired & followed by many a westerner today.
Whats funny to me is, in every MA I've studied, from Russian, to Indonesian, to Chinese, there's always that one western "fanatic" who is so into the particular art, they almost forget their heritage and practically act as though they were born in their respective arts country. Now I can respect a certain level of dedication to their training and where it came from, but some take it a little too far.

Franco

bushidomartialarts · Mar 24, 2006

i'm finding similar trouble with my brother, who is currently on his third tour in iraq. he has difficulty at home dealing with my arabic friends.

thankfully, he knows on an intellectual level that it's wrong, but sometimes has to excuse himself from the table.

hard to overcome certain mental programming you have to do if you're going to survive a war.

Carol · Mar 24, 2006

My father was a WWII veteran stationed in Alaska. (yeah, I came along kind of late

) The scale of death and suffering during that war is not something that I think I understand. I don't know if anyone my/our age understands.

It does have an impact. There was also less resources, less understanding, and less acceptance of the psychological impact that this war had.

If I saw that many of my buddies die, it would mess me up big time. But, I would have the benefit of being able to find some skilled counselors to help me through it. "Joe" probably did not. If he was a Japanese POW, he really suffered a lot for his service to our country. He may have suffered a lot more when he got home as well.

My dad...bless his soul.. tried I-don't-know-how-many times to join the army. He kept failing the physical (bad heart), but he kept going back to enlist, hoping a different doctor would pass him. He finally got in, but was assigned to a desk job. He never saw any combat, but he lost quite a few of his fellow soldiers to suicide from the dark Alaskan winters. Up until he passed away, he couldn't talk about the buddies he lost without welling up in tears. That was probably the only time I have ever seen him cry.

Had he seen combat, I think he would have been a very different person. Had he been a POW, I think he would have been a VERY different person.

My parents raised me and my sister to be respectful of other people's background, religion, etc. However, I have heard both of them use the word "Japs." The only time I heard them use it was to describe the enemies at the time. My mom was the first of the two to back away from using it, my dad followed suit. Later, I studied the Japanese language (seemed like a smart thing to do in the 80's) and my first serious boyfriend was a Japanese national. They respected and supported my study and my boyfriend, both...and even went to great lengths to hide the fact that they had a tough time with his accented, broken English.

I think a lot of WWII vets have moved on, like the vet in the post. But "Joe", while I don't agree with his outburst, I'd probably give the guy a bit of lattitude for having been in so much pain.

Franc0 · Mar 24, 2006

lady_kaur said:
My father was a WWII veteran stationed in Alaska.

Thanks for your input Lady. If you want to get a better perspective of what went on in Alaska during WW2, the History Channel is doing a special on that very subject. I think it's airing on Sat. 3/25.

Franco

mrhnau · Mar 24, 2006

masterfinger said:
Thanks for your input Lady. If you want to get a better perspective of what went on in Alaska during WW2, the History Channel is doing a special on that very subject. I think it's airing on Sat. 3/25.

Franco

for an interesting commentary on the topic, and a great quasi-fictional history of Alaska, i recommend "Alaska" by James Mitchner. One of my favotires

I've also been meaning to watch that documentary you mentioned... Mitchner is such a great author! wish I had more time to read some of his stuff!

Miles · Mar 27, 2006

There have been rumors reported throughout the years that the Japanese used karate on the POWs. I recall reading about this in Harry Cook's book on the History of Shotokan.

Miles

still learning · Mar 31, 2006

Hello, History will repeat it self (wars)..in terms of violance..any nation, race, religion...will treat the enemy with no thoughts of fairness.

When you have been treated badly, your hated will last a long time....look at Greece and Turkey? ...they still hate each other? Jews and muslins...this will last another thousand years?

Man teaches their children to hate too? ....so it's generation will carry on there parents work?

I am part-Japanese, My Mom was born in Hawaii, My grandmother was a picture bride sent from Japan to Hawaii. Many of us Japanese born in AMERICA! ...did not like what the Japanese soldiers did too the Amercians'. My Uncles (American Japanese soldiers) the famous 442nd fought in Europe during WW11.

Blame the Japanese soldiers of WW11? ...NOT the people of today!

Just my thoughts here! .....Is the world getting better? .....Aloha

bushidomartialarts · Apr 5, 2006

still learning said:
.....Is the world getting better? .....Aloha

I think so. Here we are in the middle of a thread about how sad it is that some folk can't get over racism they built up in the middle of a war.

It was my parents' generation (sigh, some MT members' grandparents) who were born in an America where racism was still institutionalized.

We have a long way to go, folks, but i believe we're moving in the right direction.

And though I'm not much of a flag-waver by nature, I have to say I'm proud of the good 'ol USA on this score. Most of the world is far behind us on the racial equality curve, even after certain recent setbacks towards elitist jingoism.

still learning · Apr 7, 2006