Contact in the Martial Arts...

[Cryozombie]

I was reading the thread about "improper touching" and it got me to thinking... A couple weeks ago, my instructor was talking about how he told his neighbor he would not teach his (the neighbor's) 14 year old daughter. He was concerned that 1) she would be training in his home, (We train in a basement dojo or a park depending on weather) and 2) that with the physical contact to, uh... how to say it... "private" areas on the body, that she or her father might misconstrue what is happening, in his basement. His wife, one of our blackbelts, agreed with his decision. Neither one wanted to hear, "He took me in his basment and all these guys touched my boob!" or what have you. I guess the logic is, The females in our school are older and more "mature" (I suppose) and UNDERSTAND and expect some "rough" contact...

There were a lot of very good responses in the other thread about ways to handle someone doing improper touching intentionaly... what I'm wondering here is... As a student, How do you handle the touching that HAS to occur to do a technique??? Both as the toucher and the touchee. (And I am not talking about improper touching, I mean for example an arm bar the rolls the hand across the chest or what have you)
And as an instructor how have you handled (if you have had to) someone who feels like they are "being touched" even when the student is only doing the technique?

I have often felt nervous and even downright afraid to execute some of the locks and throws against some of our female students, becuase, well, I dont think any of them would think I was doing somthing improper, as they have all done the techniques before, and know WHAT you have to do... but because it SEEMS like it would be improper to ME... Even some of the "near groin" stuff we do to the guys seems like it might be a little "too much" in the touching field...

 

[arnisador]

This problem isn't unique to martial arts, incidentally. Music professors who teach voice have to touch their students to teach breath control and they have similar issues.

I understand the decision your instructor made. It's probably sensible--but it's a pity something couldn't have been worked out.

 

[stickarts]

i have modified my womens self defense courses a bit just for these kinds of issues.
i always make sure their are many people present during the class, i try and pair students only with others that they are comfortable with.

 

[IsshinryuKarateGirl]

Very interesting topic.... I have noticed that in the classes that I attend, we are more focused on the technique and not about being touched. If we are working a technique near the groin or across the chest or something like that, we do not see it as offensive if anything is touched by using this technique. I know for certain that my one instructor that mostly teaches class doesn't see any offense in anything like that and does teach us techniques that do sometimes touch, strike, or go near something and no one has an issue with these techniques.

I guess that it depends on the type of people that you train with.

 

[tkdcanada]

I agree. It's obvious that with this kind of activity the occasional touch, swipe, jab, etc... will occur. Those who expect it never to happen are, in my opinion quite unrealistic. Therefore, when it does happen, or when we must do it (such as grabbing across the chest, etc..) it's a responsibility we have to just treat it as what it is - incidental - and realize that in that context, our bodies (and their parts) are just tools to execute techniques and not sexual objects.

Feelings and attitudes about these things are hard to change though and as someone mentioned, it's always a good idea to have lots of people around.

 

[D_Brady]

People who train at my school have to sighn an extensive waiver that includes the advance knowlege of.

Notice of Physical contact

Complete martial arts training involves a wide variety of skills, students may have contact with any portion of their body. the groin may be a target for kicks, strikes and grabs. The chest, buttocks, groin, or any part of the body may be contacted by any part of the trainingartners body during training by martial art techniques, or incidentally contacted while performing a martial arts technique targeting another portion of the body.

When male and female students train together, or when adult and minor students train together, and in any other training combination, the purpose and intent of the school, instructors and staff is to provide an enviroment for all students to learn and practice martial arts and self-defense. Students are expected to conduct themselves appropriately at all times to ensure the best training results for everyone.

Should any student feel a triaing partner is engaging in contact beyond the scope of training, or a training partner is taking undue and unacceptable advantage of training contact, or if a student is made uncomfortable by any training evercise or partner, then the student has the right to withdraw from the exercise or drill. If the conduct of the training partner appears inappropriate, the student should inform an insructor privately. If the conduct of the training partner or any training partner appears criminal, than an insrtuctor should be informed and the authorities may be notified by either by the student or the student or the instructor, or both.

______ ______
Initials Intials


Consent To Physical Contact


I understand the nature of physical contact in martial arts training , and I understand that I have the right to immediately withdraw from any exercise or drill in wich the conduct of any party seems beyond the scope training or makes me uncomfortable. I agree to abide by school etiquette in all matters pertaining to training, and I shall not in any way conduct myself inappropriately or take advantage of the contact martial arts training allows.


______ ______
Initials Initials


This is just a small part of a 5 page application and waiver, I know waivers don't do everything peple cliam they do, but this shows we are not like some churches who try to hide and close their eyes to situations.

 

[tkdcanada]

Very smart thing to do. Looks like you have all the bases covered. As well as protect those who may be intentionally touched inapproriately, it also serves to protect those who may be accused of same by people who may have a tendency to overreact to incidental (can't be helped) contact.

 

[arnisador]

What I like about that form is it clearly indicates that the student has the right to bow out if they wish to do so.

 

[Cryozombie]

I agree thats a good waiver.

 

[D_Brady]

If anyone would like a copy of the app/waiver just PM me and let me know.

Dan Brady.

 

[OULobo]

Its funny that this has been brought up. I had a situation like this recently. One of my fellow practitioners recently started bringing his children to the class. They are a brother and sister about 13 or so. They don't really have any drive to excel and it has pushed the other students away. Our guru purposly puts some of us with them so they get to feel different energy. Occationally I get picked. On one occation we were doing knife work and I was trapping her free hand on every counter. She keeps her free hand on her chest and on at least two occations I slipped and accidently pressed her breast. This made me so uncomfortable that I never again even tried to check her hand and switched my fighting style to a defensive "outside" style, just to avoid getting too close. I must have looked rediculous keeping my free hand pinned to my chast and dancing about defensivly. Now I loath having to work with her even more. I'm sure she understands it was an accident, but I don't want any action of mine misconstrued and especially with a minor. At any rate I can definitly see how the instructor mentioned earlier would decline the oportunity to teach a minor in his own home (basement).

 

[fist of fury]

I agree in this sue everybody society you have to be extremley careful. Trust nobody and cover yourself.

 

[Astra]

Originally posted by fist of fury
I agree in this sue everybody society you have to be extremley careful. Trust nobody and cover yourself.

I'm lucky I don't live in the country Which Shall Not Be Named. People still handle things personally around these parts

OULobo: I can understand how that situation could feel "uncomfortable". But ultimately, noone can make you feel uncomfortable except you

Psychologists would have a field day discussing the issue at hand

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Astra


Psychologists would have a field day discussing the issue at hand

I could argue that they are to blame...

See, in my case, none of the "touching" that I do in class is in any way in my mind sexual in nature... what makes me uncomfortable isnt that I might touch someone accidently (or on purpose to execurte a technique), but that THEY will misconstrue it.

I think that, in america at least, we are SO oversensitive to the things that happen, that pschologically we are raising people to be paraniod. We go out of our way to inform children that "being touched" is bad... to the point that even something accidental can be construed in their minds as "Molestation" or abuse... And it makes those of us who are likely to be "targets" of those claims (I am making an assumption that that would typicaly be an older male working with a younger student of either sex) wary of being accused of somthing.

It makes for a bunch of paranoid people... heh heh

 

[tkdcanada]

Sad, but very true. I agree with that completely.

 

[Astra]

Originally posted by Technopunk
I could argue that they are to blame...

See, in my case, none of the "touching" that I do in class is in any way in my mind sexual in nature... what makes me uncomfortable isnt that I might touch someone accidently (or on purpose to execurte a technique), but that THEY will misconstrue it.

I think that, in america at least, we are SO oversensitive to the things that happen, that pschologically we are raising people to be paraniod. We go out of our way to inform children that "being touched" is bad... to the point that even something accidental can be construed in their minds as "Molestation" or abuse... And it makes those of us who are likely to be "targets" of those claims (I am making an assumption that that would typicaly be an older male working with a younger student of either sex) wary of being accused of somthing.

It makes for a bunch of paranoid people... heh heh

But that is excactly what I had in mind..

Something that is otherwise completely natural (accidental touching) suddenly becomes "uncomfortable" for the person who did it - when more often then not the person who was "touched" realised it was an accident.

You create the paranoia for none other then YOURSELF. Quite interesting(from a psychological viewpoint), actually

 

[arnisador]

I've had similar situations OULobo and I also hold back on occasion. But, then I feel guilty that the woman is not being trained properly because I am not responding as I would. It's a no-win situation but yes one must be careful in today's litigation-happy world that sees molestation all too easily I fear.

 

[OULobo]

I think if it was an adult I wouldn't have had any issues. I had to do some training a while ago in how to be controlled and sensative to women in the setting of rape prevention classes. This makes it easier to deal with women and most of the women in my class would understand the accident and chuckle it off with me, but this was a child and our society is a little "molester frantic" right now. It seems today that touching a child's arm in any setting would have some parents calling 911 and then a lawyer.


***Bad taste joke warning***

Just imagine if I was a priest.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have just started teaching children once again and I have found that their are some techniques that I shy away from when the kids are in class.
I also find that I watch my students closer when their are kids or women in the class (we are an almost all male school for some reason)
I know some of my students tend to get foolish when a good looking woman is in class and I have had to tell one of them to knock off the crap and do the techniques the way I say to. He simple was changeing a technique a little but I didnt like where it placed his hands when he did it his way