Competition format for WC

[Eric_H]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking a lot about how WC is going to survive into the future, and as we've often lamented on this forum, and others: there's no unified way of competing that demonstrates WC skill. Personally, I've tried Lei Tai/Sanda and while fun as hell, it didn't really demonstrate much of WC. Had far more overlap with Muay Thai than anything else.

After that went and tried Chi Sao competitions and found that to be an utter waste of money and time. Having my knuckles up in front of someone's undefended face and they tap me on the chest underneath the punch I'm not allowed to connect with and the hosting school wins again. Great representation of WC bullsh!t.

So what's a competition that allows us to build/show/compete with WC focused skill? Judo has Randori, MT has kickboxing matches, BJJ has grappling comps, even the Jian fencing guys have a workable format figured out - what do we got/why is it so hard?

 

[Xue Sheng]

IMO, don't ruin a good thing. As soon as something becomes "competition" it becomes something other than it really is...it is no longer Wing Chun it is competition Wing Chun and since the Chi Sao competition was such a great success , that right there should tell you what a Wing Chun competition would end up being like

 

[mograph]

... and the "competition WC" schools begin to outnumber the "martial WC" schools?

Not that there are a lot of WC schools anyway ...

 

[Blindside]

So what about the ruleset of MMA doesn't allow WC to show its stuff in a competition format?

 

[Eric_H]

So what about the ruleset of MMA doesn't allow WC to show its stuff in a competition format?

This is a dead horse I really don't want to keep beating, but for my 2 cents: the WC responses to a lot of wrestling done at speed are more likely to cause injury. For my money, if you're going to compete in MMA you've gotta learn grappling to have an effective counter under that ruleset. At that point you're not really testing WC ability, but bending to the skills most suited to the format. Obviously, others here disagree with me on this point.

I suppose I'm looking for something more akin to Randori, where you compete with the abilities integral to the art but without the larger set of concerns closer to actual fighting.

 

[geezer]

I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move Ip Man II, but toned down for safety. How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.

Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but not totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a loss since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.

This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also, it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Like something based on the "table-top" fighting......How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground,...

Ahhhhh.....muifa training. Brings back sweet (painful) memories. haha. Ours was about 18-24 inches high. No pads on floor though. Hurt like heck if you got thrown off, kicked off, punched off, swept off, etc.

 

[drop bear]

I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move Ip Man II, but toned down for safety. How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.

Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but not totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a loss since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.

This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also, it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.

You notice the not for sport rumblings already?

Anyhow something like caged muay Thai with some tweeks.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Mephisto]

I've thought about the same thing for filipino martial arts. panantukan or filipino dirty boxing has a similiar dilemma as wc. 90% of panantukan videos around are guys doing flow drills or compliant drills but we don't really see sparring, and any sparring we do see just resembles bad boxibg with an odd elbow thrown in here and there. The best way I see to practice application of these skills is a sparring format that favors skills cultivated in the art. judo has done things like this from what I've heard, they add new rules that may make the art less realistic but it forces judo technique and limits say a bjj or wrestler from sweeping the competition.

What I've come up with for FMA is standup sparring, it could apply to WC also as Wc is akin to dirty boxing. you wear a boxng head gear with a plastic face cage so elbows can be safely thrown at the amateur level and for regular training, MMA gloves, and mouth piece. Rules; pretty much a boxing format with elbows and more permissive clinching rules, perhaps a time limit to avoid excessive clinching, standing submissions only with possible limits on available submission (no neck cranks?), kicks must be below the knee (mainly employed as sweeps, this is in accord with most filipino martial arts that avoid higher kicks due to use of weapons and also to keep Muay thai or other kickers from dominating competition), other possible restrictions would be limitations on throws to keep judo guys from dominating, and no groundwork but possibly points awarded for putting an opponent down.

The idea is to create a rulset where your art will flourish and other arts will be restricted. Disallow any techniques that aren't regularly trained in your art. Know what your art is good at and promote specialty in that area, make others play your game and don't take them on in their specialty. Later after a couple of generations of refined competition, fighters will see the value of the skillset and apply it to more permissive rulesets like MMA. The current most popular arts used in MMA (Muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, ect) all have the benefit of generations of competition in their specialty. Although we're seeing other arts make their way into MMA a method like I've mentioned might make the path a little easier. The jump from competitive Muay thai to MMA is much smaller than the jump from a non competing art like WC to MMA. Competitive arts have a pool of athletic and trained fighters to develop each other's skill, where arts like wc may have more people who train as a hobby or casually.

I think the op has a good idea. But you run into problems with the anti-sport crowd and traditionalists that favor aesthetics over ability.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move Ip Man II, but toned down for safety. How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.

Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but not totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a loss since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.

This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also, it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.

This would be awesome! (even if WC can often end up looking scrappy under pressure to untrained eyes since it is quick bursts of strikes and deflections). Would be even better if against other systems and not just WC against WC, could be a shot in the arm for WC training to end facing many types of fighters.
There would have to be control, and certain rules to prevent injury for sure, likely easier said than done though. No eye strikes or groin kicks would not be too difficult to adhere too, but typical WC jamming kicks done with any gusto could seriously hurt a challenger's knees, for example. Are they allowed to attack the legs or knees head on in the UFC? Pardon my ignorance to the ruleset; it seems every time I've tuned in I don't see much jamming, mostly Muay Thai kicks to side of the leg.
I like Geezer's idea regarding time limits on the ground, though points awarded for successful takedowns or throws makes perfect sense.
The danger I could see though, if it got to heavily technical in how it rewarded points, or if there were TOO many safeguards in place, it could encourage competitors to do things that contradict self defense principles like some TKD and Karate competitions have done the way of over the years.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Rules; pretty much a boxing format with elbows and more permissive clinching rules, perhaps a time limit to avoid excessive clinching, standing submissions only with possible limits on available submission (no neck cranks?), kicks must be below the knee (mainly employed as sweeps, this is in accord with most filipino martial arts that avoid higher kicks due to use of weapons and also to keep Muay thai or other kickers from dominating competition), other possible restrictions would be limitations on throws to keep judo guys from dominating, and no groundwork but possibly points awarded for putting an opponent down.

The idea is to create a rulset where your art will flourish and other arts will be restricted. Disallow any techniques that aren't regularly trained in your art. Know what your art is good at and promote specialty in that area, make others play your game and don't take them on in their specialty. Later after a couple of generations of refined competition, fighters will see the value of the skillset and apply it to more permissive rulesets like MMA. The current most popular arts used in MMA (Muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, ect) all have the benefit of generations of competition in their specialty. Although we're seeing other arts make their way into MMA a method like I've mentioned might make the path a little easier. The jump from competitive Muay thai to MMA is much smaller than the jump from a non competing art like WC to MMA. Competitive arts have a pool of athletic and trained fighters to develop each other's skill, where arts like wc may have more people who train as a hobby or casually.

I think the op has a good idea. But you run into problems with the anti-sport crowd and traditionalists that favor aesthetics over ability.

Wouldn't that be an artificual advantage for WC and other arts that favor hand strikes by limiting the key strengths from other styles (kicking and throwing)?? If a WC person can't face or defend against a skilled kicker or a judoka looking to set up throws, then that is a deficiency is it not? Rather than encourage people to be more well rounded fighters, wouldnt that just further encourage a narrow skillset I ask not from a super experienced WC perspective, more out of idealism than anything.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move Ip Man II, but toned down for safety. How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.

Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but not totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a loss since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.

This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also, it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.

They have something very much like this on mainland already, its called Sanshou...although being strictly Wing Chun it might look different.... or you could just bring back old school Lei Tai matches... elevated fight area, no rules and a lot of nasty fights....not recommended by me either

I just can't get behind something like Sports Wing Chun, I have see what it did to Judo, TKD and Taiji push hands and none of it is good

 

[Mephisto]

Wouldn't that be an artificual advantage for WC and other arts that favor hand strikes by limiting the key strengths from other styles (kicking and throwing)?? If a WC person can't face or defend against a skilled kicker or a judoka looking to set up throws, then that is a deficiency is it not? Rather than encourage people to be more well rounded fighters, wouldnt that just further encourage a narrow skillset I ask not from a super experienced WC perspective, more out of idealism than anything.

Perhaps, but you could say the same for boxing, judo, or Muay thai ect. Rather than try to throw wc in against specialists against other styles wc needs to develop its own competitive game. Boxing doesn't try to use its techniques against grapplers, boxers know their specialty and go to other experts to expand and fill in holes in their game. The same should be for wc, wc should get good in close range striking in its specific skillset against other high level competitors. The format I've described is more permissive and closer to reality than a boxing ruleset yet boxers are still able to apply their craft to MMA, wc should be able to do the same. Just like the early ufc was somewhat stacked in favor of bjj, no penalties for stalling on the ground or using the guard position from the back, which we don't see in wrestling or judo as much to my knowledge.

When reality is considered you need to have a strong area and be able to apply it to resisting attackers. There are plenty of videos of boxers handling thugs. The boxers despite training a restrictive sport do well because they are specialized and know how to apply their game to an aggressive attacker. If they are good enough they can hit and stay mobile and avoid a takedown, it may not always work but it's a decent strategy. Imo know where your art excels and specialize there.

 

[Mephisto]

This would be awesome! (even if WC can often end up looking scrappy under pressure to untrained eyes since it is quick bursts of strikes and deflections). Would be even better if against other systems and not just WC against WC, could be a shot in the arm for WC training to end facing many types of fighters.
There would have to be control, and certain rules to prevent injury for sure, likely easier said than done though. No eye strikes or groin kicks would not be too difficult to adhere too, but typical WC jamming kicks done with any gusto could seriously hurt a challenger's knees, for example. Are they allowed to attack the legs or knees head on in the UFC? Pardon my ignorance to the ruleset; it seems every time I've tuned in I don't see much jamming, mostly Muay Thai kicks to side of the leg.
I like Geezer's idea regarding time limits on the ground, though points awarded for successful takedowns or throws makes perfect sense.
The danger I could see though, if it got to heavily technical in how it rewarded points, or if there were TOO many safeguards in place, it could encourage competitors to do things that contradict self defense principles like some TKD and Karate competitions have done the way of over the years.

Kicks to the knee are allowed in the UFC. Surprisingly a single kick doesn't explode a fighters knee. A little research on the subject forced me to change my thoughts on knee kicks, there's still potential for injury especially against an untrained fighter but it's not the holy grail of self defense that some think it is. Here's a thread on the subject from bullshido:
Kicking the knee joints in mma

 

[PiedmontChun]

Perhaps, but you could say the same for boxing, judo, or Muay thai ect. Rather than try to throw wc in against specialists against other styles wc needs to develop its own competitive game. Boxing doesn't try to use its techniques against grapplers, boxers know their specialty and go to other experts to expand and fill in holes in their game. The same should be for wc, wc should get good in close range striking in its specific skillset against other high level competitors. The format I've described is more permissive and closer to reality than a boxing ruleset yet boxers are still able to apply their craft to MMA, wc should be able to do the same. Just like the early ufc was somewhat stacked in favor of bjj, no penalties for stalling on the ground or using the guard position from the back, which we don't see in wrestling or judo as much to my knowledge.

When reality is considered you need to have a strong area and be able to apply it to resisting attackers. There are plenty of videos of boxers handling thugs. The boxers despite training a restrictive sport do well because they are specialized and know how to apply their game to an aggressive attacker. If they are good enough they can hit and stay mobile and avoid a takedown, it may not always work but it's a decent strategy. Imo know where your art excels and specialize there.

But to play devils advocate.... since WC practictioners generally believe or preach that IS a relatively complete system, shouldnt a competition showcasing it encompass all ranges that could be reasonably found in a empty hand self defense situation? If a ruleset were to favor close range striking by restricting kicks and throws, then it would not be doing that.
I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?
Rules that are too favorable would create a bunch of slappy-hand WC practicioners that train even LESS to defend against takedowns and powerful kickers imo, but still puffed up egos because they excelled under the competition rules.

 

[Mephisto]

But to play devils advocate.... since WC practictioners generally believe or preach that IS a relatively complete system, shouldnt a competition showcasing it encompass all ranges that could be reasonably found in a empty hand self defense situation? If a ruleset were to favor close range striking by restricting kicks and throws, then it would not be doing that.
I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?
Rules that are too favorable would create a bunch of slappy-hand WC practicioners that train even LESS to defend against takedowns and powerful kickers imo, but still puffed up egos because they excelled under the competition rules.

Yeah, I'd hate for it to go the way of competitive tkd. Some of the high level tkd guys seem pretty formidable but at local comps it's a lot of slappy foot tag, but regulations on contact level seem to be to blame for that. WC guys can think it's an all inclusive system but it's not. If it were WC guys could enter MMA and dominate but they can't currently do that. The op asked questions about wc and I gave my thoughts as I've considered something similiar for the FMA I train. The guys that think wc is the perfect all inclusive system can continue their delusion or they can enter MMA and prove everyone wrong. The next best thing it to develop a sport that emphasize and develops the arts strong points, if you get enough experience applying it against other high level fighters a wc guy might just have a chance a Muay thai or judo guy. Just like a boxer who can hit and move well may be able to avoid bing tied up by a grappler (still debatabke that he could pull it off against a high level grappler). Any competition will never be reality, any trainung in the school/dojo/gym will never be reality. There are always limitations in place you have to accept that and choose what limitations you can apply while still bing able to reach a high level in your art. That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.

 

[Eric_H]

That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.

I suppose thinking on it more, that's what I'm trying to get at. A subset of WC skills that can be trained to a high level across different schools and worked on/competed with as common ground.

I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?

I think as long as you are honest about what any training is intended to do, it's not a bad thing to have a competition that only focuses on one area of the art, or multiple types of competition that focus on individual areas. Taking a subset that can be trained to a high level can be of benefit, i think, as long as it's not viewed as the end-all-be-all of the art.

@Xue Sheng - I'm not really familiar with what's happened in Taiji circles, I'm still pretty young in that art (5 years now i think?) What are you referring to in terms of push hands being made a competition. What's happened there that gives you a negative opinion?

 

[PiedmontChun]

Yeah, I'd hate for it to go the way of competitive tkd. Some of the high level tkd guys seem pretty formidable but at local comps it's a lot of slappy foot tag, but regulations on contact level seem to be to blame for that. WC guys can think it's an all inclusive system but it's not. If it were WC guys could enter MMA and dominate but they can't currently do that. The op asked questions about wc and I gave my thoughts as I've considered something similiar for the FMA I train. The guys that think wc is the perfect all inclusive system can continue their delusion or they can enter MMA and prove everyone wrong. The next best thing it to develop a sport that emphasize and develops the arts strong points, if you get enough experience applying it against other high level fighters a wc guy might just have a chance a Muay thai or judo guy. Just like a boxer who can hit and move well may be able to avoid bing tied up by a grappler (still debatabke that he could pull it off against a high level grappler). Any competition will never be reality, any trainung in the school/dojo/gym will never be reality. There are always limitations in place you have to accept that and choose what limitations you can apply while still bing able to reach a high level in your art. That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.

I see your point. I just think its watering down the art to deliberately limit the need for kicking and throwing defense. Those are part of "good" WC. Accounting for differing skill levels, if I can't use WC princples and tools to defend against a kicker or a judoka trying to set up a throw because WC in fact lacks those tools, then I took up the wrong art. If I have to work HARDER to defend certain things because WC doesn't focus on it as much, that I am ok with (if that distinction makes sense and might be what you were getting at to some degree).
Such open competition would be a real shot in the arm for some WC guys training though. I don't think watching WC against WC would be very exciting.

 

[Blindside]

I see your point. I just think its watering down the art to deliberately limit the need for kicking and throwing defense. Those are part of "good" WC. Accounting for differing skill levels, if I can't use WC princples and tools to defend against a kicker or a judoka trying to set up a throw because WC in fact lacks those tools, then I took up the wrong art. If I have to work HARDER to defend certain things because WC doesn't focus on it as much, that I am ok with (if that distinction makes sense and might be what you were getting at to some degree).
Such open competition would be a real shot in the arm for some WC guys training though. I don't think watching WC against WC would be very exciting.

Actually in reading the back and forth between you and Mephisto, the WC and panantukan/panamot/dirty boxing rule set could be the same.

I think it is reasonable to keep it to a standing striking ruleset with fairly open rules, but then why wouldn't you just use something like Muay Thai rules with MMA gloves? Allows elbows, allows clinch, allows throws but no ground game. I'd watch it.