Changes since the early days...

[jks9199]

I had the privilege over the weekend of training with several very senior students in both the system I train in, and others whom we have a close relationship with. The instructors's experience dates back as far as the early 50s.

At one point, a discussion about how martial arts (especially, but not limited to) competions and training have changed since then. One of the ideas presented was that the advent of safety gear and "non-contact" sparring competitions has changed martial arts training dramatically. In the "rough old days", sparring competition was basically nearly full contact; one of the comments was that if you didn't basically knock your opponent out of the ring -- you didn't get a point. Accordingly, training in class was just as hard... or harder. They said that fighters back then were much better technicians and showed much cleaner technique. Safety gear and non-contact events led to much less effective techniques being used in fighting. (All this led up to the suggestion that many people's martial arts training today does not prepare students realistically for self defense.)

Now, let me shift to my own experience and observations over 20 years. Tournaments when I first started were much less expensive than today's, and many were at least double elimination in sparring, if not round-robin. In our own system tournament -- well, you could expect to be HIT, swept, and more, even as a white belt. And we fought a true round-robin where everyone fought everyone else in their division when I started. In open tournaments, unrealistic stuff still got through... (I recall one guy getting a point after a series of my bodyshots drove him almost out of the ring... and there was the guy who leapt at me, and I knocked him out of the air, but he got the point...) In class... Well, when we "sparred", we fought. It wasn't uncommon to be bruised and generally knocked around.

So... I suspect that we've got folks here on MT who trained and fought back in the "rough old days", as well as my own "intermediate, not so old or rough days", and, of course, people whose training is only a few years old...

Anybody got opinions?

(And -- to be clear, if I've mispoken someone's opinion above, it's my fault!)

 

[Xue Sheng]

I started over 30 years ago and it was rougher but it was also a whole lot friendlier and there was a lot less bad mouthing going on, unless of course you were willing to back it up.

I will never forget my TKD teacher (30 years ago) laughing at the thought of protective gear.

My taiji sifu, who has been at this for likely 50 years or more still does not understand protective gear

 

[jks9199]

There's a reason this is on my mind. I'm not happy with the results I'm getting in some ways from my students; I think this may be part of why.

I just got a chance to see some excellent sparring by a few students of a friend of mine. They looked great; they were sharp, skilled, and they showed STYLE. To me, way too many fighters today don't show style; they all fight from the same sort of modified boxing stance, run at each other kicking or punching, and you just don't see style in what they do. A TKD fighter is indistinguishable from a Thai fighter who looks like a karateka who looks like a Chinese stylist... "'cause that stuff don't work without changing it in the ring." It wasn't always that way -- and it doesn't have to be.

I'm seriously considering a few ideas to see if I can't get my guys to have style, like lots more sparring exercises without the pads.

 

[Blindside]

I disagree, I still see "style" all the time. A Muay Thai guy does not throw a roundkick like a TKD guy. If your guys don't have "style" why are you blaming the rules, isn't it your training that isn't coming out? Does your personal fighting have "style?" Maybe you don't see "style" because the arts have gravitated toward whatever ruleset you play by.

What rules are you using? Do you allow leg kicks? Is the groin a target? Takedowns? Throws? Knees and elbows? What contact level do you generally use? What contact level are you planning on when you take away the pads?

Lamont

 

[tshadowchaser]

I can remember the days when you could see a guy walk across the floor in his uniform and pretty well know whathis fighting techniques would be.
I remember the days when you fought harder in class than at tournaments and protective padding was not heard of and the only thing that might be padded was a cast. Points in tournaments where won not given and brusies ,bumps and blood where often the results of clashes. Throws where allowed in class and tournaments.
Respect was earned and you might not like someone but the two of you could respect the ability of the other.
Yes thing have changed over the years and I am not sure they have been for the better.

 

[MJS]

I had the privilege over the weekend of training with several very senior students in both the system I train in, and others whom we have a close relationship with. The instructors's experience dates back as far as the early 50s.

At one point, a discussion about how martial arts (especially, but not limited to) competions and training have changed since then. One of the ideas presented was that the advent of safety gear and "non-contact" sparring competitions has changed martial arts training dramatically. In the "rough old days", sparring competition was basically nearly full contact; one of the comments was that if you didn't basically knock your opponent out of the ring -- you didn't get a point. Accordingly, training in class was just as hard... or harder. They said that fighters back then were much better technicians and showed much cleaner technique. Safety gear and non-contact events led to much less effective techniques being used in fighting. (All this led up to the suggestion that many people's martial arts training today does not prepare students realistically for self defense.)

Now, let me shift to my own experience and observations over 20 years. Tournaments when I first started were much less expensive than today's, and many were at least double elimination in sparring, if not round-robin. In our own system tournament -- well, you could expect to be HIT, swept, and more, even as a white belt. And we fought a true round-robin where everyone fought everyone else in their division when I started. In open tournaments, unrealistic stuff still got through... (I recall one guy getting a point after a series of my bodyshots drove him almost out of the ring... and there was the guy who leapt at me, and I knocked him out of the air, but he got the point...) In class... Well, when we "sparred", we fought. It wasn't uncommon to be bruised and generally knocked around.

So... I suspect that we've got folks here on MT who trained and fought back in the "rough old days", as well as my own "intermediate, not so old or rough days", and, of course, people whose training is only a few years old...

Anybody got opinions?

(And -- to be clear, if I've mispoken someone's opinion above, it's my fault!)

Too much contact and the fear of a lawsuit is what, IMO, made things change. I think that school owners fear getting sued, and rightfully so, so they 'water down' so to speak, the training, contact, etc. to suit the current desire. Personally, I've always wondered why someone would join a contact art and not expect contact. I mean, sure someone who trains for health reasons and has no desire to learn for SD reasons, would probably be taken by surprise when hit hard, but should the others who are there for SD suffer because of this? I mean, if the goal is SD, its better to get used to that contact in the controlled setting, than find out what works/does not work when you need those skills.

I like to mix up the training levels, but I tend to stay with more contact. We all have jobs we need to go to, so I can't afford to go to work with a busted nose, black eye, broken or sprained arm or leg, so some protection is necessary. I like my teeth, so I'm wearing a mouth guard. I spar every week and every week the contact is up there.

I wasn't around in the 50s, so I can only go off of what I see and hear today. IMO, I think that going too light is doing a dis-service to people.

Mike

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Bleeding Hearts.
"Everyone should be allowed to do it," or ,"martial arts should be for everybody."
TKD foot tag.
Semi-contact.
You can be a little easier on white belts by giving them a chance to learn rather than pummelling them, but the contact should be made as part of a first impression. They sign the waiver when they join, right? Some people are too sensitive to take karate. Go take some tae bo.

 

[jks9199]

Just bumping due to a similar thread and issue coming up...

 

[Haze]

I think we see things change because we have changed the age of the student. First school on my area would not let me train because I was to young (13yrs old). Now I see 4 yr olds training.

Training may have been harder, fights more realistic. Adults choose to do this. Signed a waiver and you, as an adult where responsible for understanding what you signed.

MARTIAL Arts are a contact activity. Or should I say use to be.

I got into this in the 80's ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I was 35yrs old. Some cracked ribs, split lip, bloody nose came with the activity.

 

[dancingalone]

I have nothing new to add as to the reasons for the changes in intensity in ma schools. I would offer that I can and do teach as my teacher taught me with plenty of sweat and occasional bruising or bleeding, but it means I could support myself financially through teaching. In my case, this is a more than acceptable trade-off since I don't wish to compromise my martial arts in any way. I understand that others given the same choice will choose otherwise.

 

[seasoned]

With the onset of protective gear, the respect factor went out the window. What would have been a decisive hit with bare knuckles, was just a powder puff shot with gloves on. In the old days my instructor would teach us not to get hit with anything. Consequently blocking and evasive moves were honed, and respect was high toward your opponent, because a well placed back fist, would get you stitches. Once the protective gear came into play, there was more hitting going on and less respect for the other persons hits. It was almost like, take a shot, to get a shot in. People would think they could take a good shot, not considering the glove factor. The respect for the dreaded reverse punch, made way for the hook and cross punch. Back in my day groin hits were used often, so we learned to block them, because, we had no cup on. I could go on and on, what about the two knuckle punch, with a glove on, forget it. "Changes since the early days", the biggest in my mind is respect, and the way we treat other students, years back if Sensei didn't like the way something was going, there was no talking about it, no touchy feely, just hit the floor and lets see what ya got. This was a weeding out process, and if you didn't like it, quit. The end result was a higher ranked group of karate ka that new the score, were well rounded, and could kick a_ _. I know there are probably some that are sick of hearing about the good old days, but to them I say, there has to be a reason, there called, "the good old days".

 

[seasoned]

With the onset of protective gear, the respect factor went out the window. What would have been a decisive hit with bare knuckles, was just a powder puff shot with gloves on. In the old days my instructor would teach us not to get hit with anything. Consequently blocking and evasive moves were honed, and respect was high toward your opponent, because a well placed back fist, would get you stitches. Once the protective gear came into play, there was more hitting going on and less respect for the other persons hits. It was almost like, take a shot, to get a shot in. People would think they could take a good shot, not considering the glove factor. The respect for the dreaded reverse punch, made way for the hook and cross punch. Back in my day groin hits were used often, so we learned to block them, because, we had no cup on. I could go on and on, what about the two knuckle punch, with a glove on, forget it. "Changes since the early days", the biggest in my mind is respect, and the way we treat other students, years back if Sensei didn't like the way something was going, there was no talking about it, no touchy feely, just hit the floor and lets see what ya got. This was a weeding out process, and if you didn't like it, quit. The end result was a higher ranked group of karate ka that new the score, were well rounded, and could kick a_ _. I know there are probably some that are sick of hearing about the good old days, but to them I say, there has to be a reason, there called, "the good old days".

Sorry about the above rant, it's been a looong day. :asian:

 

[searcher]

Changes from the days of old?

No groin contact,
No heavy contact,
Draw blood and you lose,
No repsect for the ones who have come before,
"Cross-breeding" of styles(students learn 1 or 2 forms from a different style to be able to compete in another division without actually learning the style).

These are a few of the things I have seen, be they good or bad. And I see where you are coming from, on the differences between styles. Sport martial arts have made many changes to draw a crowd and to better market the talent of its people.


Lets drop the gear back to a minimum and get back to basics. Good old-fashioned blood and guts training.

 

[Wey]

My training has stemmed a very short 2 years thus far, and my sparring consists of gears and a mouthpiece. Honestly, I love the idea of no gears. I can see what you all are talking of about not REALLY learning self-defense when you get hit with protection on.

I'm going to propose this idea to my Sempai!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry about the above rant, it's been a looong day. :asian:

No need to apologize. You should see some of my rants


I was having a talk with my taiji sifu about the old days; his old days, over 50 years ago and how many today even know that training taiji included hitting and qinna. How many in his class know it is more than a health exercise today (if I had to guess 3) how many actually enjoy training the martial arts side of taiji and think the falling down part is pretty cool...that's easy 1... me, even though I am not the oldest in the room, I started MA long before anyone there, other than my sifu that is.

I have found that more today seem to get angry if they get hit, fall down, or get corrected. I don't remember that being so prevalent in the "good ole days" but then maybe I am getting old and forgetful.

 

[just2kicku]

I got into MA's the latter part of '75. Kids were generally not allowed in the classes because they were pretty rough. My uncle (RIP) made an exception for me and my cousin. I was 10 at the time.

We were shown no mercy and were often used as dummies and punching bags. We wore a cup and it was almost full contact in everything you did. You stuck up for your school with your fist.

Sparring was a hell of a lot harder in class then tourneys. There was no dq for drawing blood and shots to the throat were a full point.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, 90% of the people today are just way to soft. There was a time when the real fights happened in the parking lots of the tourneys. My dad and uncle thought it was good that we got busted up in class, there was no coddling of the kids. If I got a bloody nose, my fault, should've blocked. If I got a cut under my eye, hey my fault, should've blocked.

Today, when you try to teach like that, you're called brutal, mean and merciless. There is no more grabbing someone by the hair and ripping their head up and telling them to look straight anymore.

MA has become a hobby for most. People get mad when I tell them that you do not say sorry in my class. You hit somebody, expect payback, no sorrys.

Me and some of the other BB's spar with no gear, the students are impressed, they say that's what they want to do. But there's no commitment.

I think there are very few people who train that way or who even want to train that way. When I teach the beginners class, a lot of time I'm half busted up from the BB class the night before.

So that is what I think about that.

 

[MJS]

I got into MA's the latter part of '75. Kids were generally not allowed in the classes because they were pretty rough. My uncle (RIP) made an exception for me and my cousin. I was 10 at the time.

We were shown no mercy and were often used as dummies and punching bags. We wore a cup and it was almost full contact in everything you did. You stuck up for your school with your fist.

Sparring was a hell of a lot harder in class then tourneys. There was no dq for drawing blood and shots to the throat were a full point.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, 90% of the people today are just way to soft. There was a time when the real fights happened in the parking lots of the tourneys. My dad and uncle thought it was good that we got busted up in class, there was no coddling of the kids. If I got a bloody nose, my fault, should've blocked. If I got a cut under my eye, hey my fault, should've blocked.

Today, when you try to teach like that, you're called brutal, mean and merciless. There is no more grabbing someone by the hair and ripping their head up and telling them to look straight anymore.

MA has become a hobby for most. People get mad when I tell them that you do not say sorry in my class. You hit somebody, expect payback, no sorrys.

Me and some of the other BB's spar with no gear, the students are impressed, they say that's what they want to do. But there's no commitment.

I think there are very few people who train that way or who even want to train that way. When I teach the beginners class, a lot of time I'm half busted up from the BB class the night before.

So that is what I think about that.

I've seen some of the Kaju guys use the following..."Blood is just red sweat."

Of course today, if someone sees the 'red sweat' they pull their kid out of class and run to the nearest lawyer. Of course, on the other hand, I'd rather the mistakes happen in the dojo, where the errors can be fixed, rather than on the street, and then the person wonders where all of the money they just invested into training went.

 

[futabachan]

One of the ideas presented was that the advent of safety gear and "non-contact" sparring competitions has changed martial arts training dramatically.

And now it's coming full circle -- MMA is the new shiny attention grabber (like ninjas, Bruce Lee/JKD, and judo were in earlier eras), and with it comes a focus on alive, full-resistance training and a disdain for non-contact point sparring. In some circles, that is; plenty of schools that watered themselves down are staying there. But new ones that go hard are springing up.

...or so I hear. I'm focusing on weapons now, not unarmed training, and what happened to unarmed arts mostly didn't happen, except for the INF dropping ishizuki tsuki over safety fears. I wouldn't mind seeing ashi barai come back to kendo, but A) that was well before my time, and B) I'm not holding my breath.