Bulletmen and Steve Hayes

[Connovar]

I have been told that Mr. Hayes has been using a bulletman type technology in their training. Since I trained with Steve and Rumiko back in the earlier days and have also trained at RMCAT in the bulletman technology I am curious as to how they integrated it with their system. Anyone have experiece regarding that and how it integrated with the training. Steve always was an innovator which is one of things I liked about training with him. Thanks.

 

[arnisador]

What do you mean by bulletman technology?

 

[Cryozombie]

If I recall correctly, the Bulletmen are stress training gurus that suit up in big foam "armor" and you go full tilt on them.

The subject has been brought up about Toshindo doing this... of course people have expressed Pros and Cons to this type of training.

 

[Don Roley]

Go to www.RMCAT.com to see some bullet men suits in action. The suits that Hayes uses is a bit different. IIRC, there is a little legal/copyright situation that prevents Him from using the thing that makes Quinn's guys look like Bullet on legs. He has to use a system that does not totally enclose the head and kneck, which has some real problems as a good bash to the head can do damage to a kneck like whiplash.

 

[arnisador]

I've seen him quoted in ads for them.

 

[Tengu6]

SKH does not use the Bulletman system, he was involved at a seminar with them and that’s where the quote came from in the ad's but he uses the Redman suit from Macho which can not sustain the same head and neck trauma that the Bulletman suit can.



Padded assailant training is very beneficial (imo) if used correctly. It can teach us a lot about speed and most importantly your Balance. Also, the adrenal training is great but you don’t necessarily need the suit for that.



There are things padded training can provide that non padded training cant and vice versa. IMO a combo of padded and non padded training is the way to go.



Here is the redman suit.


http://www.macho.com/self.shtml

Markk Bush

 

[Connovar]

Thanks for the redman link. It isnt the same thing. I noticed the head and groin shots were listed for "accidental" light contact. At RMCAT we were lifting the bulletmen on to their toes or off the ground sometimes with the knee shots.

Still I can see how it would help with the taijitsu since back then at least there wasnt much sparring. Its good to see taijitsu changing and growing. Some of the people I trained with were a great bunch and enjoyed training with them.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Still I can see how it would help with the taijitsu since back then at least there wasnt much sparring. Its good to see taijitsu changing and growing.

More often than not, sparring does the opposite thing for your taijutsu. The evolvement of the Takamatsuden systems does not depend on sparring.

 

[Connovar]

More often than not, sparring does the opposite thing for your taijutsu. The evolvement of the Takamatsuden systems does not depend on sparring.

I agree with you. Taijitsu has changed both technically and functionally since 1981 when I first began training in the system. In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat. As such a lot of modern weapons and concepts were incorporated. For example we trained in escape and evasion using both ancient and modern concepts. Similiar we trained with both and modern weapons. However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system. Given that sparring, would probably get in the way of learning subtle classical technique.

 

[stephen]

I agree with you. Taijitsu has changed both technically and functionally since 1981 when I first began training in the system. In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat. As such a lot of modern weapons and concepts were incorporated. For example we trained in escape and evasion using both ancient and modern concepts. Similiar we trained with both and modern weapons. However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system. Given that sparring, would probably get in the way of learning subtle classical technique.

:idunno: ?????

 

[Connovar]

:idunno: ?????

More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques. For example they dress up in civil war uniforms, practice volley fire and demonstrate typical battle field scenarios. In a similiar direction you have taijitsu practioners dressing up in japanese clothing wearing japanese style shoes and sometimes will even dress up in samurai costumes. They will practice fighting with and against ancient weapons such as naginata, kusarifundo etc. etc. They will demonstate classical methods fighting with a focus on each particular schools unique points.

The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend.

Of course that doesnt meen all the current taijitsu styles dont work on functionality or that the early taijitsu did not address the historically accurate aspects. It was just that one focused on one more then the other. There is nothing wrong with either focus. My brother enjoyed standing in lines and firing volleys at the opposing side with his musket and I prefered tactical handgun shooting. We both had fun and that is the bottom line in the end.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat.

According to who? And how does that compare to nowadays?

However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system.

Says who?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques.

Do you think these guys would agree?
www.specwog.bujinkan.hr

For example they dress up in civil war uniforms, practice volley fire and demonstrate typical battle field scenarios.

Come again??

The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend.

Now here's what I've been thinking about for a while. Do you know for a fact that the focus in Japan at the time was on the same things commonly practiced in America back then?

 

[Connovar]

I dont know for a fact what they trained in Japan at that time. I do know however what Manaka and Hatsumi taught when they came to the US in the early days and it didnt conflict with what we were doing here. I was there and I saw it. I see it now and its different. As we had joked back then the "invasion of the scroll collectors" was occurring. They in fact won.

Times have changed taijitsu had more of a paramilitary emphasis at that time and perhaps it is well that it changed in order to become more popular. Also today with all the concerns about terrorism doing the things we did back then might be problematic. For me I enjoyed it more when we trained our taijitsu outdoors even in inclement weather, practiced climbing and rappelling, did combat shooting and even practiced e and e skills in the streets of little old Germantown, Ohio. Each to their own and may each benefit in their studies.

I would imagine although I havent talked to Steve or Rumiko in many years, is that the To-Shin Do is similiar to what he did first which was to update classical taijitsu principles to a modern focus and for that I will always respect Steve.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I dont know for a fact what they trained in Japan at that time. I do know however what Manaka and Hatsumi taught when they came to the US in the early days and it didnt conflict with what we were doing here.

Suppose it was the other way around, and Hatsumi sensei simply adjusted to it...?

For me I enjoyed it more when we trained our taijitsu outdoors even in inclement weather, practiced climbing and rappelling, did combat shooting and even practiced e and e skills in the streets of little old Germantown, Ohio. Each to their own and may each benefit in their studies.

Funny, a lot of that doesn't really sound like taijutsu training to me...

I would imagine although I havent talked to Steve or Rumiko in many years, is that the To-Shin Do is similiar to what he did first which was to update classical taijitsu principles to a modern focus and for that I will always respect Steve.

On what basis can you say that this isn't done in the Bujinkan nowadays?

 

[Don Roley]

More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques.

That is outside my experience in that art.

Yes, there is some exploration of how armor and such could alter the ways you move. But the emphisis is not on re-enacting, but rather understanding the reasons and principles in order to be free to adapt them as needed in the modern age.

Take a look at the last Daikomyosai. I did not go, but have the DVD. The mornings had Hatsumi run around in armor and detail the kata as they were used in the past. In the afternoon, he took it off and taught various ways the principles could still be used if you knew them.

I think your example of a civil war re-enactment society is off. I would say that it is closer to the way that Army officers still study civil war battles. The don't do so in order to try to fight them in the same manner. They do so because they are trying to get down principles of combat and the ways that men wage war changes so much that trying to get too specific narrows the utility.

 

[Connovar]

Funny, a lot of that doesn't really sound like taijutsu training to me...

Thus my reason for stating that it is different now than it was done in the 80's. Where you there? You see irritated for some reason. Do you expect things to stay static?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Thus my reason for stating that it is different now than it was done in the 80's. Where you there? You see irritated for some reason. Do you expect things to stay static?

I wasn't there, but many people I've talked to who were often tell me that the only reason there was so much rock climbing, firearms training, e and e, and general ninja-like activities, was because the available knowledge on taijutsu as taught in the Bujinkan (BWT, with the term taijutsu I'm referring to the most important part of Bujinkan training whatsoever - unarmed combat training) at the time was minimal compared to nowadays. I'm told that this changed to a large extent when people started travelling to Japan and noticed that the training focus there didn't have very much in common with what they were used to.

I mean, we don't want people who can disassemble an AK-47 in their sleep whilst never even having heard of kihon happo, do we...?

 

[stephen]

The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend.

Well, it's good to know that the Americans in the 80's had it right. Too bad all that knowledge from Japan eventually came and polluted the enviroment.


/stephen

 

[Don Roley]

Umm... not speaking as a moderator here, just as a concerned participent in this thread.

Maybe we should kind of leave all the other issues about whether Toshindo or Bujinkan now or in the old days is better, etc outside of this conversation and keep talking about the use of armored assailent scenario training in Toshindo.

:asian: