Bujinkan v. Genbukan?

Hudson69

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I was reading a thread in Kenpo about Tracy's system v. Ed Parker's. There was no bad mouthing of one over the other and this is what I am getting too.

Without being negative how do these two systems differ with Tenamura Sensei being a former student of Soke. I sat in one Genbukan class in Utah but that wasn't anything.

If someone can comment on the Jinenkan system that would be great too, in regard to how similar/different it is from the parent system.

Thank you
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Hudson69,

I think this has been covered a couple of times in different threads, but to concisely put it in one spot, here goes:

Essentially the main difference is in the emphasis of each organisation. The Bujinkan at present doesn't really look to teach the individual Ryu, or even the particular kata from each (depending on the individual instructor, of course), but rather it's emphasis is on the principles and nature of combat as expressed through the traditional teachings. There are various reasons for this, including Hatsumi Sensei's current belief's as to what is most important to keep these arts (and it's practitioners) alive. I might point out here that that does not necessarily mean that the techniques need always be "combat effective", as simply continuing to breathe is just a part of life, and is not the definition of being alive (or living).

Tanemura left the Bujinkan in the mid '80s (about '84 if memory serves) for a variety of reasons that we don't need to go into here, but he then formed his own organisation (the Genbukan) so he could continue to teach the arts as he saw best. The Genbukan's emphasis is on "correct transmission" of the traditional Japanese Martial Arts. As a result, there is a greater emphasis on physical standards and continuity in abilities across the board, as well as a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the systems.

The Jinenkan was formed after Manaka Sensei left the Bujinkan in the mid '90's. The emphasis of the Jinenkan is on drilling the basics (as Manaka did with Hatsumi Sensei early on in his training), and then in teaching and learning the individual Ryu in the same order as the scrolls are written. Again, there is an emphasis on the technical aspects.

Each have their own particular strengths and weaknesses. The Bujinkan is great for getting principles, getting used to flow and adapting to movement, and will appeal to people wanting to be able to individualise the art to themselves. The downside is that there is less control over the end result, with gifted people gaining a very good degree of skill, but others being left floundering with little "solid" to grasp on to.

The Genbukan will get you very good from a technical standpoint, and has a huge base of knowledge to draw from. It's downside can be just that, though, with more information than you can realistically get through (for most people), resulting in an overload, giving a broad base, with little enough time given to mastery of any particular skill-set. A solution to this has been the traditional ranking in individual Ryu-ha.

The Jinenkan, with it's emphasis on the basics is one of the most solid bases in the Ninjutsu world. It also is the most limited in terms of schools taught, so there is more time to spend getting good at particular areas. However, with it's emphasis on the classical scrolls, there can be limited real-world violence (in terms of a street-style attacker) understanding, so from a strictly self defence standpoint, it can be a little lacking there.

Of course, these are generalisations, and good instructors (of which there are plenty in each organisation) will minimise (to the point of removing almost all) the limitations and weaknesses apparent, as well as heightening the strengths. And those are the instructors that will keep each of these organisations moving forward into the future.
 

Kajowaraku

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Being in Genbukan I can say the observations Chris made are correct as far as my experience with either genbukan or the other orgs goes. It is true genbukan offers a vastness of knowledge, probably more than anyone can ever hope to master, but I suppose this is at least in part also true for Bujinkan, the main difference being that it isn't all that obvious do to the absence of a fixed curriculum for each discipline. However, I can imagine that people getting higher ranked in bujinkan, and getting on a more personal basis with Mr. Hatsumi Masaaki find themselves before new challenges. It is like Chris said, the difference between the orgs seems to be mainly one of emphasis. In genbukan training on flows and principles occurs too, but only after rigorous training in the traditional basics has transpired does it start to take on any significant role in training. In bujinkan it seems to be the other way around (correct me if i'm wrong here), one learns the principles and the flows and only when good at those can one learn the more traditional knowledge base (the lack of a fixed curriculum for grades seems to confirm this, afterall, one can't put "flow and mastery of principles" in a curriculum that easily, leaving more to the discretion of the instructor, in Genbukan the requirements are all very clear, but flow is assessed by the execution of these fixed techniques, so it is still at least a part of the evaluation. Obviously, i suppose for grading in bujinkan, it won't be just flow, and some level linked techniques will need to be mastered too.

I'm a scientist and take an interest in correct transmission, so genbukan works fine for me, while the very layed back atmosphere that seems to be more predominant in bujinkan dojo doesn't work for me. I can understand alot of people preferring that over the almost military discipline of genbukan though.

What people should understand before anything else is that it isn't about what's good or what's bad, not even about which is better than the other. It's about what works for you. Even if that is (gasp) american or (why not) french-"ninjitsu".

I still would have to reccomend sticking to the basic three X-kans or their direct spinoffs if you want to learn ninpo though. Like i said before: "throwing iron chopsticks does not a ninja make."
 

STEPS

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All dojos in all the X-Kans are not equal. Do some hunting. Stephane Meunier from Montreal wrote a GREAT book about how to chose a martial art and a good instructor within it. I suggest you check it out as a guideline. Many people who have read it wished it was available back when they were choosing a dojo. Good luck to you!

http://www.budomontreal.com/En/Store.html
 

Bruno@MT

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It is true that not all dojo or sensei are equal.
That is why in most dojo, you get 2 free lessons so that you can get some feeling for how training is.
 

EWBell

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Finding a good instructor is paramount regardless of which X-kan you choose, in my opinion. Being in the Genbukan I know that we have standards in place for ranking, but standards alone are not enough. The most important thing for a student is having an instructor who will correctly transmit the techniques to them. If the instructor isn't doing that, then the syllabus is worthless.
 

xJOHNx

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If I remember correctly, 2 of the 7 schools Jinenkan trains in has at least or has 65 kata.. So I don't know if that is limiting, because it can take up to a year to perform a kata completely right with daily training.

The limited real world violence, well that's up to the teacher no? No one ever said that you were going to survive on the street because of MA... No matter what MA it is.. No matter the teacher... You get a better chance though!
 

Chris Parker

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Let's see:

Gyokko Ryu has around 50 kata including the Sanshin and Kihon Happo.
Koto Ryu has around 50 kata.
Togakure Ryu has nearly 50 kata (including the Bikenjutsu).
Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu has around 30 kata, Jutaijutsu (Taijutsu) has nearly 40 kata (with the last book having up to 5 traditional henka per kata).
Takagi Yoshin Ryu has 125 kata ( depending on how the Muto Dori and Daisho Sabaki are taught).
Kukishinden Ryu has about 60 kata for the unarmed, 60 kata for Bo, 20 for Jo, 15 for Hanbo, 20 for Biken, 5 for Jutte, 3 for Kodachi, 15 for Naginata, 9 for Bisento, and 30 for Yari, giving a total of 240 or so.

This is not including the Jinen Ryu (founded by Manaka Unsui Sensei, and containing Jutte, Sword, Nito, and more), nor is it including the various henka in the scrolls or those possible from your training.

So I'm in total agreement with you xJOHNx, I just meant that it was more limited in scope than organisations such as the Genbukan/KJJR. Very good points about the street aspect, too.
 

xJOHNx

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Damn! Let no-one ever say again that you don't know what you are talking about!

You are right, I mis-read your sentence (twice), re-read it for the third time and now I understand what you were saying. Forget my previous comment as you are completely right.

I love Henka, it keeps you aware during performance.

About the street violence: my sensei said it this week. To avoid fake-certainty when you walk on the streets. First school ever to be so honest about it.
 

Troy Wideman

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Hi Chris,

Just to correct you on the numbers for Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu. It truly depends on what line you are referring to. In Ishitanni Den there is 52 Kata just for shoden Menkyo this does not include the patterns that are taught for the kuden section and the list of pressure points. Therefore just the shoden Menkyo would be around 80-90. The chuden level has about the same and the okuden level is bigger still.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Troy,

Yeah, I am aware of that. From memory the Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu lineage that Tanemura Sensei holds has the Shoden no Gata combining the Omote and Ura Gata in the one book, typically one Omote Gata and two or three Ura Gata each time. Within the Bujinkan version the Omote Gata and Ura Gata are two seperate books, with the Omote Gata having 14 - 16 techniques (depending on how henka are counted), and the second book (the Ura Gata) having another 20. There are then henka to those as well, but the list for the Bujinkan version (Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu) is a slightly different list to the Genbukan/KJJR variant (Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu). I believe the Jinenkan follow the Hatsumi lineage.

If this is incorrect, please let me know.
 

Troy Wideman

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Hi Chris,

Actually your pretty close. The difference between the Mizuta lineage and the Ishitani Lineage is in the order of the techniques and content. The Mizuta lineage seems to have a slightly different flare to it. Some of the names and order of the techniques actually seems like it is mixed up a bit. This is just my assumptions of it though. The Ishitani den seems to be a more complete line, at least from what I have observed and trained in. Both lines are great though. There is another line of Takagi Yoshin Ryu that Tanemura Sensei has learned and it has a completely different feel then both the Ishitani and the Mizuta.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Troy,

Good to know! I have seen a number of different versions of the lineages, even within the same lineage itself. Some versions of the Mizuta-den (Hatsumi lineage) I have seen teaching only 7 kata for the Muto Dori, and no Daisho Sabaki, others have only the 14 kata of the Daisho Sabaki, and others have 13 kata for the Muto Dori, and may or may not include the Daisho Sabaki Gata. Interestingly, the Takagi Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku, supposedly written around 1844 before the lineages were split, features only the 7 Muto Dori kata, with no Daisho Sabaki.

The structure of the different branches is a bit different as well. The Ishitani-den, for instance, contains Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu (Hontai Kukishin Ryu), and other sections, whereas the Mizuta-den does not. And the Hontai Yoshin Ryu (under Innoue Soke) is different again, although it claims the Kukishin Ryu for it's weaponry work as well.

Add to all of this the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu whose Taijutsu is basically modelled on the Ishitani-den Takagi Ryu, with very similar kata lists and performance.

I completely agree that the "feel" of the different branches are quite different as well, I would describe the Mizuta-den as direct, and free from extranious motions, whereas what I have seen of the Ishitani-den I would describe as bigger in action and excecution. Both are just fantastic systems.
 
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Troy Wideman

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Hi Chris,

The Mizuta den line has both Muto Dori Gata and Daisho Sabaki Gata, the difference between the two is that there is very few ura gata in the Mizuta den for these sections. This is an example of why I say it is not as complete as the Ishitani den. I like to refer to ura gata as the "what if's", hahhaha. I think for the longest time in the bujinkan it was not common knowledge that there was a Daisho Sabakki Gata section in Takagi Yoshin Ryu because Hatsummi wasn't teaching it openly.
I found it interesting that in his book secrets of the Samurai that he did not list the Shirabe no Gata section but listed the Muto Dori and Daisho Sabakki sections which are in a higher level normally.
I agree with you that Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu is made up from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, however, the patterns are done differently but are close. I truly feel that Takagi Yoshin Ryu is one of the most well rounded ryu ha taught within the xkans. However, all the different ryu ha combine together to make you a well rounded martial artist.
You are correct as well, that the Mizuta den does not include the bo jutsu with it, the ishitani den does.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Almack

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Wow!! Loads of great info (for a 3rd Kyu) to try and get my head around.

On a side note, I'm aware that Soke (Dr Hatsumi) doesn't allow members of the Bujinkan to train in the Genbukan. What is Tanemura's stance?
 

Kajowaraku

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The three X-kans are all mutually exclusive. if you train in Bujinkan you can't join genbukan or jinenkan (correct me if i'm wrong, but I seem to remember it being the case for jinenkan too). The other kans have the same restrictions on joining any other ninpo organisation. I'm not fully sure about jinenkan, as i said, but as far as i know it is the same way. Still, you'll usually get alot more respect being a member in an X-kan (or Banafide spinoff) than when joining some made up McNinja. ie, it's not unheard of for people to switch x-kan later in their MA career, and inbetween the X-kans that is theoretically possible, due to the large overlap in material. So it isn't all bad blood around at all. In fact it's very double, very paradoxical, and above all very Japanese.With Japanese it often seems they try to kill each other with politeness.
 
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xJOHNx

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Never heard about that in Jinenkan.
Than again, politics are not a part of the curriculum during class :)

Is it true that if you join genbukan that you hae to sign some kind of contract not to bring it to the public? Or other martial arts?

heard someone saying it over the weekend.
 

EWBell

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Never heard about that in Jinenkan.
Than again, politics are not a part of the curriculum during class :)

Is it true that if you join genbukan that you hae to sign some kind of contract not to bring it to the public? Or other martial arts?

heard someone saying it over the weekend.

You can study other martial arts if you are a member of the Genbukan. However, you cannot study other ninpo/ninjutsu arts. As far as showing techniques to the public, you aren't supposed to teach people techniques who aren't members unless you have permission to do so, as in some type of seminar.

Everything you need to know about joining the Genbukan is located in the following links. The second link is for an Adobe version of the membership rules. I'd go by these before I'd go on hearsay. ;)

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_join

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=886
 

Bruno@MT

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Studying other arts (but not ninpo or ninjutsu) is not only allowed, but encouraged because it makes you a more complete martial artist. All high ranking genbukan members practise both ninpo and jujutsu. And one or 2 practise other arts as well.
It is not a rule, as in 'written down' that you must do both ninpo and jujutsu, but Tanemura sensei says it is a 'good idea' so all people who intend to stay for the long haul do this.

As for the rules, they are public, and you can find them here:
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=886
 

Cryozombie

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It is not a rule, as in 'written down' that you must do both ninpo and jujutsu, but Tanemura sensei says it is a 'good idea' so all people who intend to stay for the long haul do this.

Rules or not, I agree with Mr. Tanemura that it's a good idea. Eventually. One you have good fundamentals in your primary art.
 

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