Bruce Lee

[thetruth]

**please leave this post in general discussion as I would like a wide range of opinion**

If Bruce Lee's theory behind JKD was take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own then how many generations of students does it take for JKD to be unrecognisable??

Surely after Bruce Lee taught Dan Inosanto who taught Paul Vunak who taught someone who taught someone then the adding and removal of techniques would create the potential for an art with no techniques that the founder taught or used as the current student is unable to apply them due to height or weight or physical ability.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[kaizasosei]

the effectiveness is recognizable-
bl did have certain forms and style including both effectivity as well as aesthetics and show.

j

 

[Chitmunk]

Having read many of Bruce Lee's works, as well as seen the interviews of him, Brandon, and Danny Inasanto when it comes to training JKD, really only Bruce Lee himself practiced Jeet Kun Do, all others have their renditions, but they practice more in the tradition of JKD than in actual JKD itself. The purpose behind the development behind JKD was to help an individual develope his own martial art through training principles through techniques. The old "Teach a man to fish" cliche. No matter how hard you train, you will not think or move exactly like Master Lee, but that was the point. JKD is one of the biggest breakthroughs in martial arts history because it is not a style (at least is was not supposed to be) but instead it is a training system to help you unlock your own style. "Accept no way as the way. Accept no limitation as limitation." That is the purpose behind Master Lee's philosophy of "Observe your situation, absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own." I strongly suggest getting the works of the Master to read because they are simply genious.

 

[tshadowchaser]

only Bruce Lee himself practiced Jeet Kun Do, all others have their renditions, but they practice more in the tradition of JKD than in actual JKD itself

I have to agree with this. Basic techniques are passed from instructor to student but after a few generations some of the basics are changed and the student who is a 5th or 8th generation is learning a whole new basic set.
It also dependes upon who is teaching as each instructor may have a different background that they are adding to the idea of JKD

 

[bowser666]

I personally don't think JKD was really a style. It was more of a philosophy and a way of training. Very insightful, but it all depends on what your goals are as well. This theory doesn't necesarily work for everyone.

 

[DavidCC]

So some guy his frst day on the mats should be rejecting stuff he is taught becasue he doesn't feel it is useful LOL? Doesn't one need a certain amount of experience and learning to even have a chance discerning "this is ineffective" from "I need more practice". heck I would have rejected the side kick as impractical at one point LOL

In my probably unpopular opinion, JKD is not so much an expression of Bruce Lee's genius but of his arrogance.

He was physically gifted to an extreme, it seems, but where would he be now a his body aged? Would he eventually have sought out traditional teachers to deepen his knowledge? ("external to internal"). Would he have given up MA entirely by now and be an actor or fight choreographer or director?

 

[punisher73]

So some guy his frst day on the mats should be rejecting stuff he is taught becasue he doesn't feel it is useful LOL? Doesn't one need a certain amount of experience and learning to even have a chance discerning "this is ineffective" from "I need more practice". heck I would have rejected the side kick as impractical at one point LOL

In my probably unpopular opinion, JKD is not so much an expression of Bruce Lee's genius but of his arrogance.

He was physically gifted to an extreme, it seems, but where would he be now a his body aged? Would he eventually have sought out traditional teachers to deepen his knowledge? ("external to internal"). Would he have given up MA entirely by now and be an actor or fight choreographer or director?

I agree with this. I remember one time in class, a lower kyu rank was shown a technique and he didn't realize the master was behind him and he made the comment that "it wouldn't work". The master replied, "You're absolutely right, that will never work....for you." If you don't think it will work and discard it you aren't going to be spending the time to put in the sweat and make it your own or to put in the time and decide that it doesn't fit into your personal approach.

As far as JKD, it was Lee's expression coming from a Wing Chun background and then pulling tools from other arts to fill in gaps. Dan Inosanto's JKD comes from his FMA background. That is why JKD will vary from person to person. If you really want to study what BL did, then Dan Inosanto and others teach Jun Fan Gung Fu. Which would have been Bruce's "style", that is the curriculum/tools he taught and applied his JKD concepts to.

I also agree, that Bruce was very physically gifted and could learn things VERY easily. BUT, he also died when he was 32. He studied from about the age of 14-18 in Wing Chun and then left for the US. He only studied for a total of 18 yrs at the time of his death. My point on that is, he was still very young and just coming into his mental maturity. As he aged and lost his speed, how would he have adjusted his approach?

 

[terryl965]

Beside it being a philosophy, remember Bruce had some foundation before he started to throw things out and he keeped what worked for him. Everybody over the years try to understand what he was teaching, he was not teaching a Art perse but a philo. of techniques that has no limittations withen a set of rules.

 

[DavidCC]

He only studied for a total of 18 yrs at the time of his death.

I think that is generous. I think once he got into movies and TV he may have been focused primarily on that and maybe not spent so much time studying. Working out, sure. But hid focus may have bene on learning hwo to act, how to navigate the media business, how to do MA that looked good on film etc etc All these things could be very distracting...

what is it they say about "time in the Art" vs "Time at the Art"?

I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee, make no mistake, I just think he was the greatest Martial Arts Movie Star of all time, not the greatest Martial Artist of all time. There's a 15 yr old brown belt at our school and he wasn;t even sure who Bruce Lee was!!!!! I ORDERED him to go rent Enter the Dragon that night, I think even his dad was surprised, he said something about heading to the video store on the way home LOL

 

[MA-Caver]

Bruce Lee's theory behind JKD was take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own then how many generations of students does it take for JKD to be unrecognizable??

None.
IMO Still too many people misinterpret Lee's concept of JKD and taking what's not useful and using what is. That's not JKD at least not the base concept.
Towards the end of his life in one of his last interviews Lee stated that he started not to believe in Styles anymore because they were too confining, too restrictive... FOR HIM.
He was looking for something that would honestly express himself and honestly express himself TO himself "not lying to one's self" he felt that it was very difficult to do.
Remember that he was a Philosophy student/graduate and he was too wrapped up in setting up a base for himself to be heard by a broader audience (via motion pictures) and to be a big enough star that American film makers would stop balking at the idea of an Oriental lead. My belief is that he wanted to accomplish this to 1. make sure that he and his family no longer have to struggle... ever and 2.to talk/teach his concept of JKD in a way that it would reach more people. He knew that the big screen would be the best place to do that. Some of his earlier attempts include Return of the Dragon and of course more directly with Game of Death which was ruined by those trying to capitalize upon his death/name.
Lee learned voraciously dozens of various fighting styles to be able to use in whatever situation he happen to find himself in (combat/fighting wise). Many arts/styles have weak and strong points. He knew this and thus studied whatever he could to find them and incorporate them into Lee's way of fighting.
My belief is that Lee was studying as many of these as he can and using whatever he learned to win the fight. If this form or this technique isn't applicable for this moment of the fight then "throw it out". I don't think he ever meant... learn it and forget it. Learn it and if you can use it at that moment then do so, if not don't.
When he said that he doesn't believe in a Chinese way of fighting or a Japanese way of fighting or whatever way of fighting... he was speaking for himself. HE doesn't believe in it. He believed in himself and HIS way of fighting.
Everyone else needs to find their own way. If the Chinese way or the Japanese way is a good way for you then by all means pursue it, be the best you can be in that art. However (again, according to Lee) if it's not expressing who you are or you're not comfortable with what you're saying by doing that particular style then toss it out and find something that fits.


Just how I see it.
:asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

**please leave this post in general discussion as I would like a wide range of opinion**

If Bruce Lee's theory behind JKD was take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own then how many generations of students does it take for JKD to be unrecognisable??

Surely after Bruce Lee taught Dan Inosanto who taught Paul Vunak who taught someone who taught someone then the adding and removal of techniques would create the potential for an art with no techniques that the founder taught or used as the current student is unable to apply them due to height or weight or physical ability.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

This is the story of many Chinese martial arts (although I do not think JKD is considered Chinese) What the founder did and what his students end up teaching thier students and so on is generally not exactly the same this is why you have multiple forms of taiji, bagua, xingyi, changquan, tongbei, white crane, etc.

 

[zDom]

... I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee, make no mistake, I just think he was the greatest Martial Arts Movie Star of all time, not the greatest Martial Artist of all time. ...

I'm afraid we disagree on this.

I think Jackie Chan is the greatest Martial Art Movie Star of all time

I like Bruce Lee, too, though

 

[celtic_crippler]

**please leave this post in general discussion as I would like a wide range of opinion**

If Bruce Lee's theory behind JKD was take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own then how many generations of students does it take for JKD to be unrecognisable??

Surely after Bruce Lee taught Dan Inosanto who taught Paul Vunak who taught someone who taught someone then the adding and removal of techniques would create the potential for an art with no techniques that the founder taught or used as the current student is unable to apply them due to height or weight or physical ability.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Yes.

A style of no style....just personal expression as Bruce would say. The idea is to focus on what works, in particular and utlimately what works for YOU.

This concept is not alien to martial arts....SGM Ed Parker referred to it as "tailoring."

Basic concepts and/or principles work for everyone; however, the manner in which an individual applies them is as diverse as the individuals practicing them.... a punch is just a punch in the beginning.... then you train in martial arts and learn there is much more to it....then...in the end, it's just a punch again.

 

[DavidCC]

Yes.

A style of no style....just personal expression as Bruce would say. The idea is to focus on what works, in particular and utlimately what works for YOU.

This concept is not alien to martial arts....SGM Ed Parker referred to it as "tailoring."

is that really what "tailoring" is?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

**please leave this post in general discussion as I would like a wide range of opinion**

If Bruce Lee's theory behind JKD was take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own then how many generations of students does it take for JKD to be unrecognisable??

Surely after Bruce Lee taught Dan Inosanto who taught Paul Vunak who taught someone who taught someone then the adding and removal of techniques would create the potential for an art with no techniques that the founder taught or used as the current student is unable to apply them due to height or weight or physical ability.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I couldn't give you a number. I think that it would be a lot more had Lee not died so young or so suddenly. When an artist of any medium dies in his or her prime, their adherents want so badly to honor the artist that they practice the art, whatever it is, as if frozen in time.

Look at those who like to play the music of Elvis Presley; few people try to take Presley's act and make a logical progression out of it. Most just try to duplicate Presley in his singing and movements. I often wonder how different the last Superman movie (Superman Returns) would have been had Reeve not died so tragically. I'd almost guarantee that they'd have started fresh rather than trying to preserve the story from Reeve's first two movies.

Others here have already commented very intelligently regarding JKD, so I won't add my own meager voice. I do feel that had Lee were still alive today, his philosophy would have had much fuller expression and that popular martial arts would likely be different, though to what degree I cannot say.

Daniel

 

[still learning]

Hello, Each person will develop his own style or methods base on their experiences....

Same teacher...each of us will see a different point of view of what is taught to us....

Hence? ....Same art..same Professors....YET each Instructor from the SAME professor will teach things just a little different....Depends on how they remember it taught to them....

We see this at Universal Kempo Karate schools annual Seminars....we learn S/D techniques From own Instructors...at the Seminars we are told to follow the Chief instrutors interpetations of the forms and technqiues...

Everyone forms there own styles....and MR Bruce Lee wasn't the first one to realize ....delete the techniques that don't work and use the ones that do.....Kajikenpo came from fives styles before Bruce lee was ever a name...same for many other styles that were form....before and after his time...

Man had been fighting each other from the first two men on earth......the art of fighting.....Nothing is new today...just different interpetations....

=======================================================

Tomorrow? ...who knows what's NEXT is the martial arts of the world...supposely a NEW AND BETTER STYLE? TO BE DISCOVER?

A new name...with a new twist?

Aloha, isn't rock and roll dancing the same....always changing?

 

[Robert Lee]

First you will find JKD did have a structure in its learning Each pahse as Bruce progressed had a way of learning. sure Bruce taught one person one way and another some other way. GIVING thew person the needed tools and understanding that person could use . JKD is an expression of your attributes. As is any M A is. If you do forms ect, you are practicing set selfdefence movemements. BUT as you spar or make contact with a resistive live person You have to find from your training and abilty what works well for you. THAT is yours no body elses it is what is useful for you. No one person can use all they learn in a M/A each person develops there need there way. As you pass down an art Even JKD you can pass down what you were taught and give the freedom so each student finds there own way. That way has no name it is yours. Bind your self to it must be this way or that you can not really use it. And then As bruce related explore The ground game Judo ,jujitsu, And No need as Bruce saw to learn many arts Take what you know you have fit it in with this art to see where it strong points will be Bruce basicly Used wing Chun. western boxing, And fencing footwork and excerpts. Along with judo and jujitsu From Gene labell And wally jay. But the wing chun became very modified And JKD today can still be seen as near as what bruce handed down. Just each also have there own way also. As many of you what art you have trained You also when in live training react and do what you do. Bruce was much more then an acter He was A martial artist That broke from traditional methods And proved Live training shows you where you are truely weak or strong. And a person really does not have to train for many years to learn how to fight and fight well. Only but a small hand full of tools are needed any any fight. And each fight is not like the one before. JKD was ment to develop a person On there own needs not the needs of a style. Your style is meant the same way. If you can not use or do the move in resitive training it is use less fro you. BUT maybe the person next to you maybe able to use it well. We are all different JKD has no way as it should be your way

 

[Chitmunk]

Speaking of the concept of discarding what is useless, I do not believe that Master Lee was meaning take one look at a manuver and then immediately decide if it is useful or not. More along the lines of knowing your own limitations. Example: Master Lee was near sighted, which is why he took up Wing chung, it is a very close range fighting style so by training in it he could negate his limitation. A student cannot know if a new tecnique is useful or not until implimentation of that move. So even if they find that their personal limitations prevent them from using that technique effectivly they still have observed the training for that move and absorbed from it the useful principal behind it, then discarded what they cannot use, so they can apply that principle to their unique style.

 

[The Anarchist]

I pretty much stated in other threads that "it" cannot be proven empirically, but it's far from B.S.

Is it relavent to you? If so, persue abstract concepts. If not, you can always do MMA and say you are "complete"!

 

[kwaichang]

somehow I miss the point of this.....Bruce Lee was and never will be again, therefore his art too will not be the same today....but I digress.:whip1: