Bruce Lee and Martial Arts.

[SRyuFighter]

How many Martial Arts did Bruce Lee know. And what ranks was he in these?

 

[Angus]

He only formally studied Wing Chun under Yip-Man. As far as I recall, it was for about 5 years only, which was not enough to complete the forms and all the techniques in the system. Essentially, he didn't finish his training because he left the country.

 

[SRyuFighter]

So that is all that he knew. Five years of Wing Chun. I thought he supposedly knew a whole lot of stuff. Guess you can't believe everything you hear.

 

[Angus]

That's his only extended formal training. He continued to learn things here and there from other people, like Chuck Norris, etc, but for the most part everything he did came out of what he knew from Wing Chun and things he figured out himself.

The key to his success what not lifelong study of a martial art from birth to death, but rather his intense, intense conditioning. He was in incredible shape, which is a BIG factor in that kind of martial success, at least in my opinion.

 

[SRyuFighter]

I wasn't challenging his fighting ability. I was just surprised that that was all of his formal training I had heard a lot about Shaolin Temples, etc. etc. I agree though him being in shape was the key to his success

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Angus
That's his only extended formal training. He continued to learn things here and there from other people, like Chuck Norris, etc, but for the most part everything he did came out of what he knew from Wing Chun and things he figured out himself.

The key to his success what not lifelong study of a martial art from birth to death, but rather his intense, intense conditioning. He was in incredible shape, which is a BIG factor in that kind of martial success, at least in my opinion.

What he figured out was, techniques are best keep simple and few. But you make them count by putting speed and power behind them. He discarded kata and patterns as pointless memorising of complex movements. He incorporated bodybuilding routines and plyometric workout into his training. Which gave him great speed and strength. Bruce Lee extracted from other styles only those techniques that could help him to prevail in combat. The key is what criteria you use to judge what is worth keeping and what is to discard. That became the JKD concepts. The set of techniques he taught became the Original JKD.


To say that he was good simply b/c he was in good shape, is gross understating of his knowledge in combat fighting.

 

[TkdWarrior]

i read somewhere that it take only 3-4 yrs to learn Wing Chun system as it has only 3 empty hand forms.
as compared to other Northern/southern system WC doesn't contain endless forms...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Angus]

Yeah, I didn't say he was good because he was in good shape, I said it was a key to his success that people tend to overlook. I didn't say it was the only thing.

Pure and simple fact, he didn't finish his training in Hong Kong. Does that seem detrimental to his future? No, but it's still true. Would it have been different if he did learn it all? Who knows. But it's still true.

 

[KennethKu]

There were many versions of stories why he didn't finish Wing Chung. Some had it that Yip Man's sponsors didn't want him to teach Wing Chung to Bruce whose mother was not pure Chinese. Yip Man was a habitual gambler and a lousy manager and his school's finance was largely supported by a group of patrons and his senior students. So he had no choice but to cut Lee loose. But he left his top student William Cheung to guide Lee.

Lee never learnt the top secret of WingChung, and according to hearsay (which I am sure all of what I am regurgitating here, is) he tried to bribe Yip Man to teach him that, at another time. But Yip Man refused.

JKD borrows heavily from WingChung. WingChung is a conceptual martial art. If you study WingChung's kicking concepts: Cleaving the center, Attacking the post, Attacking the weapon, and Obstructing the path, you would find that these are all JKD essence.

Would it have made any difference had he finished WingChung? Who knows. Lee definitely begged, borrowed and stole from any art that he could get his hands on. He didn't transplant all the WingChung techniques nor concepts neither. Even the widely known ChiSao was deemphasized shortly before he died. The reason was ChiSao was practically useless against someone like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar , as in the Game of Death.

 

[Cthulhu]

I don't know about any bribe, but it is said that at one time, Lee tried to get Yip Man's permission to film him doing the dummy form. Yip Man refused. I don't recall ever hearing mention of a bribe in that situation. I believe it was Hawkins Cheung who said that once a student left Yip Man, Yip Man considered that former student to be a competitor, so wouldn't share any more information.

Even so, Lee always spoke highly of Yip Man, and though he found things he felt to be flaws with the system, he usually spoke highly of Wing Chun as well.

Cthulhu

 

[bob919]

he did gung fu when he was young than did wingchun but he was expelled from his school cause he was 1/4 german and racism was all the rage in china but i think it was good for him it made him train alone and he musty be one of the toughest fighters ever not the best though i would be hesitant to call anyone the best.
IMO wing chuin and gung fu are pretty good fighting styles but bruce lee added to them and took away from them to create a superior martial art (read as well rounded and street effective)

 

[SRyuFighter]

What type of Gung Fu did he do. Wing CHun is a form of Gung FU you know.

 

[bob919]

yeh i know i red that he did gung fu when he was young and wing chun when he got a little older i just assumed that by gungfu he meant a diiferent type of it

i always get confused between gung fu and kung fu whats the difference is gungfu southern and kung fu northern

i know gungfu is less fancy and more economical

 

[yilisifu]

Lee also studied a form of northern Shao-lin which is where he developed his kicks. Years ago, Taekwondo enthusiasts tried to infer that he'd trained in that art but it simply isn't true.

He had studied some western boxing and also some fencing (which he'd learned from his brother, I think).

I understand that he did try to bribe Yip Man into teaching him the third form and letting him film Yip doing the 108 Wooden Dummy techniques, but Yip turned him down.

I believe that if he hadn't got into movies (he had Ed Parker to thank for that), he would have just been another kung-fu teacher. Due to his Hollywood fame, Black Belt Magazine did numerous articles on him and these were later followed up by Inside Kung-Fu Magazine.
Bruce was actually beaten badly many times in his career, but the magazines wouldn't let that be known (nor would Bruce as it would detract from his image). Bobby Lowe's Kyokushin people in Hawaii crunched him badly and a well-known Uechi-Ryu group on the east coast also mauled him.
I personally know individuals (Chinese) who got along with him but who admitted to me that they'd witnessed him getting his tush beaten by several other martial arts people.....But that was kept very hush-hush and is still not widely known.

 

[Cthulhu]

Could you provide sources for these claims? I'm sure this is the first time most of us have heard these stories.

Bruce never studied any other Chinese martial arts system for any appreciable period other than Wing Chun. He took some kicks and some forms from some 'Northern' kung fu systems, but never studied them with any of the seriousness in which he did WC.

It was some time before Bruce broke into the movies, starting in U.S. television first, then the Chinese movie market, and finally entering the U.S. movie market after his death.

He did not try to bribe Yip Man for the dummy movements, merely asked him if he could film him for his reference. Yes, Yip Man turned him down.

I'd love to hear objective testimony from these alleged 'crunching' or 'maulings' by other martial arts groups. I find it hard to believe them, since there are many who could have benefited by making these claims public during his life, and even after. Also, Bruce Lee never lived in Hawaii or the East Coast, spending his entire time in the U.S. in Washington or California, which really makes the claims of any east coast Uechi group suspect.

These are some extraordinary claims which will require extraordinary evidence if you want anyone to them seriously.

Cthulhu

 

[ace]

Also Trained With Gene Lebell in Grappling & Judo
As well as Judo & Ju Jitsu with Wally Jay.

He was a Member of the Xavier Boxing team
in Hong Kong.
He Practise Fenceing with his brother Robert

He also recerched FMA with Dan Inosanto.

Now as far as Rank goes from what i know
he did not belive in it.

Also Bob 919 Were do U get German From????///
To My Knowlegde his parents were both Chinese

 

[SRyuFighter]

I agree that they do sound off the wall. But I don't have any trouble believing that Bruce Lee could have been beaten. I always thought he was overrated.

 

[yilisifu]

It is true that Lee never lived in Hawaii or on the east coast. However, one need not live in a given place in order to go there and train or practice fighting with other martial artists.

The Uechi group has actual photos of Lee getting swacked by their people in various matches. Their chief instructor, being the true gentleman and fine martial artist that he is, did not wish to tarnish the young man's reputation and never made these incidents public. Still hasn't. But he'll show you the photos if you go there.

He was soundly trounced in San Fransisco; the gentleman I spoke of who was a witness to it never wanted to hurt Bruce's image and everyone just kept quiet about it; especially after his passing. They do not wish to dishonor the dead.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by yilisifu
It is true that Lee never lived in Hawaii or on the east coast. However, one need not live in a given place in order to go there and train or practice fighting with other martial artists.

The Uechi group has actual photos of Lee getting swacked by their people in various matches. Their chief instructor, being the true gentleman and fine martial artist that he is, did not wish to tarnish the young man's reputation and never made these incidents public. Still hasn't. But he'll show you the photos if you go there.

He was soundly trounced in San Fransisco; the gentleman I spoke of who was a witness to it never wanted to hurt Bruce's image and everyone just kept quiet about it; especially after his passing. They do not wish to dishonor the dead.

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Now why would Bruce ask to learn the 3rd form when all he ever learned was the first form!

Your second hand information is most likely false. Not to discredit your integrity. Second hand information is second hand information but who you get it from is what matters the most.

There are many people in this world who would dispute your facts, many of them who actually knew Bruce on a personal level.

There is no way that those defeats would of or could of been kept secret! About having to go to someones school to see the pics in person. Come on! They just happen to be taking pictures that day and nobody else has them!

"My" second hand information came from someone who actually spoke with Bruce after the the happened in OAKLAND NOT SAN FRANCISCO!! And the only witnesses were Linda Lee, James Lee and whoever showed up with Wong Jack Man. "Today" Wong Jack Man says that the fight was a tie and lasted 20 minutes. That comes from the actual "FIGHTER!" HE DIDN'T SAY HE WON! Never the less, Linda Lee disputes that! She was there! And my Sigung personally spoke to Bruce after the fight and Bruce stated that he was upset that the fight took too long, he needed to get in better shape because he had wasted a lot of energy chasing Wong Jack Man around the room before he tackeled Wong and pouned him on the ground! He said the fight lasted a couple of minutes and should of only lasted 30 seconds!

Of course this is still second hand information, but it is still pretty reliable.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

There all people still alive that know the truth.

 

[yilisifu]

The incident to which I refer occured in San Fransisco, not Oakland. Linda Lee was not present. I will not reveal the name of the gentleman who was witness as he asked me not to do so. I will say, however, that his reputation both as a citizen and as a martial artist, is impeccable.

The pictures from the Uechi school are credible.

If you want to continue believing in fairy tales, that's your business. Bruce Lee was not the be-all, end-all of martial arts. He won some and he lost some.