Biu Sao/Biu Jee

[wingchun100]

I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.

While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.

Where are the areas that could truly be hurt by a finger jab? The eyes, the hollow of the throat...and that's about it. And your aim has to be INCREDIBLY on point to hit these targets accurately, especially during the chaotic nature of a fight.

Personally, the only time I would ever use a finger jab is if someone had me pinned against the wall, and I could sink that jab right into the hollow of their throat. However, I think there are some people out there who might think it is the kind of attack that could be used more frequently than that.

Your thoughts?

 

[KPM]

Biu Gee has about a 4 or 5 inch reach advantage over a punch. So if you are managing distance well, you can land a Biu Gee while the opponent may have trouble reaching you with a punch. Biu Gee can also be a "sweep" or "rake" with the fingertips, it doesn't have to be a thrust with the fingertips. A quick rake across the eyes can be enough to make an opponent flinch and recoil and so set you up for a more devastating blow. But a finger in the eye can be a fight-stopper. You see that all the time in MMA when it happens by "accident." And it doesn't have to be very forceful to be effective.

 

[wingchun100]

Biu Gee has about a 4 or 5 inch reach advantage over a punch. So if you are managing distance well, you can land a Biu Gee while the opponent may have trouble reaching you with a punch. Biu Gee can also be a "sweep" or "rake" with the fingertips, it doesn't have to be a thrust with the fingertips. A quick rake across the eyes can be enough to make an opponent flinch and recoil and so set you up for a more devastating blow. But a finger in the eye can be a fight-stopper. You see that all the time in MMA when it happens by "accident." And it doesn't have to be very forceful to be effective.

I agree, especially with the rake part, but my point is your aim has to be RIDICULOUSLY on point. Then again, even if it is, if your opponent moves, then you've got a broken finger or two.

 

[PiedmontChun]

The double Biu Sau / Bil Sau in the SNT does not have the fingers aligned with an opponent's eyes. If I recall, I was taught the proper positioning has enough spacing between the hands that it would be the slightly bent thumbs that would align with and strike an opponent's eyes while the fingers glance to the side. I imagine you could poke someone in the eye with rigid fingers but is risky since it could hurt you more than them, especially if you struck the bridge, eyebrow, or forehead region. Very narrow of a target for success that way.

Disclaimer: Before someone faults me for viewing it as a 1:1 application of the form... the "techniques" in SNT are not really "techniques" as much as teaching body mechanics and position, but there is still definitely some 1:1 application to be taken from them. That said, the Biu Sau is a great tool for dispersing shoulder level attacks that do not have low elbow force behind them (i.e a lot of non WC strikes) and can work well on the inside or while stepping to outside. I'm sure someone more experienced could comment better, but there is a reason Biu is taught in the SNT form this way, before any of the variations later in the BJ form that have different intents.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, especially with the rake part, but my point is your aim has to be RIDICULOUSLY on point. Then again, even if it is, if your opponent moves, then you've got a broken finger or two.

I don't know the forms you're talking about, but I'll pitch in some thoughts that may or may not be applicable. I should probably look for a video before posting, but I'm going to do so afterwards, just to ensure I have no idea what I'm talking about.

First, fingers are harder to break than that. They're easy to jam, and small dislocations at the knuckle aren't uncommon, but breaks and separations are uncommon. If the hand is in a good structure in Biu Jee, then even if it makes contact at an odd angle, the fingers should be reasonably protected.

As for the effectiveness of the rake (or even poke) to the face, I don't think the targeting has to be terribly precise for it to be effective. Most people will flinch from something they perceive as about to hit their face, and moreso if they think it's going to hit their lips, nose, or eyes (in order of increasing flinchiness). So, if your Biu Jee has the range to reach their face, it need not hit a useful target to be useful - they just have to think (in that instant of reaction) that it might. If you get lucky and find an eye, so much the better.

 

[kakkattekoi]

every movement in wing chun can be used as attack in my opinion. if i cant use it the first time i just try it out with a diff combination

Sent from my 404SH using Tapatalk

 

[geezer]

WC 100's OP questioning the reliability of biu sau interpreted as a stiff-fingered jab has merit. As pointed out above by KPM, a soft, flicking or raking movement is sufficient against the eyes and a good deal less risky in case your opponent ducks his head downward and your fingers strike his forehead instead of the eyes.

Piedmont was also right on the mark IMO. You can use the index finger as a guide and strike the eyes with the thumb, reducing the risk to your fingers. In general, it's better not to hit with the fingertips at all. In the VT I train we follow the advice of my old Chinese sifu and apply the biu tze sau as a "shat geng sau" or "throat-cutting hand" --striking forward with the outside edge of the hand against the neck of our opponent. This is a viciously effective strike and the fingers are never put at risk. You can even apply shat-sau on the wooden dummy with no risk to your hand.

 

[wingchun100]

WC 100's OP questioning the reliability of biu sau interpreted as a stiff-fingered jab has merit. As pointed out above by KPM, a soft, flicking or raking movement is sufficient against the eyes and a good deal less risky in case your opponent ducks his head downward and your fingers strike his forehead instead of the eyes.

Piedmont was also right on the mark IMO. You can use the index finger as a guide and strike the eyes with the thumb, reducing the risk to your fingers. In general, it's better not to hit with the fingertips at all. In the VT I train we follow the advice of my old Chinese sifu and apply the biu tze sau as a "shat geng sau" or "throat-cutting hand" --striking forward with the outside edge of the hand against the neck of our opponent. This is a viciously effective strike and the fingers are never put at risk. You can even apply shat-sau on the wooden dummy with no risk to your hand.

I am going to try footage of this, because while I think I am visualizing the right thing in my head, I want to be sure.

 

[wckf92]

...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...

 

[yak sao]

Here is a short demo of how we use biu tze in LT. lineage.
The idea, as geezer stated, is not to strike with the finger tips, though in a given circumstance that could very well be the case; our understanding of the 3rd form is to create an elastic, whipping type force. So rather than send energy out to the finger tips, we send energy through the finger tips, making the arm very springy.

 

[wingchun100]

...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...

Giving examples of how would be more useful and informative. Not for nothing, but I have never seen any finger conditioning exercises that make fingers harder to break or otherwise injure.

 

[Juany118]

I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.

While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.

Where are the areas that could truly be hurt by a finger jab? The eyes, the hollow of the throat...and that's about it. And your aim has to be INCREDIBLY on point to hit these targets accurately, especially during the chaotic nature of a fight.

Personally, the only time I would ever use a finger jab is if someone had me pinned against the wall, and I could sink that jab right into the hollow of their throat. However, I think there are some people out there who might think it is the kind of attack that could be used more frequently than that.

Your thoughts?

First it depends on the conditioning you do. I go to seminars given by a TWC Master on occasion. While he still uses the strike for "soft" targets he also speaks of the importance of training the hand to be able to apply such strikes. He demonstrated one day by striking his own head with his finger tips. I heard the "thunk, thunk, thunk" from across the room.

As for locations that could be hurt, I would add; a strike to the arm pit (which surprisingly has a bunch of applications), temple and the TMJ come immediately to mind. There are also other useful pressure point strikes that it works well with. That said the only one I can think of where either a digital thumb or phoenix eye fist wouldn't be equally effective is the arm pit strike. However don't underestimate the jab to the eyes. Even if you don't do real damage that can be an AWESOME distraction to allow for other things. Even before I started studying WC I found thrusting at the eyes was an excellent way for me to create an opportunity to go for a tool if I got caught "flat footed" at work.

 

[Juany118]

Giving examples of how would be more useful and informative. Not for nothing, but I have never seen any finger conditioning exercises that make fingers harder to break or otherwise injure.

There are a bunch of ways to do it but remember, the idea is not to let you strike a "hard" target like the skull full force with your fingers. It's to let you strike "soft" targets reliably and provide a margin for error, if you miss.

Some of the methods...

Start with rice bags like you would for iron palm but you also condition the top of the hand. Then after that thrust.

I haven't gotten to this point yet with fingers but to strengthen my digital thumb and phoenix eye I do the rice bag thing and some push ups each day during my "regular" work-out. Now I prefer starting slow hence these methods BUT to an extent, you are right in that at some point you are breaking things along with strengthening muscle and tendons. Here is a good video that illustrates the general idea of the "breaking" things...

hop to 45 seconds on the video. Oh another thing that helps with the above. I assume it simply serves as a natural topical analgesic but Lau Family dit da jow helps A LOT if you apply before and after. As an example, just the other night during the Kali training period at my school the teenager I have been assigned to "rein in" (he needs to realize 'quality' > speed still) waffled my left index finger right on the knuckle with a rattan stick while we were doing sinawali. Over to the cabinet, some Jow, the pain was basically gone when before that, while not broken, it hurt like an SOB. I love jow. Don't know how it works but Lau Family stuff is almost a miracle imo.

 

[wayfaring]

I don't know the forms you're talking about, but I'll pitch in some thoughts that may or may not be applicable. I should probably look for a video before posting, but I'm going to do so afterwards, just to ensure I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Wow. So the most vocal member of this forum isn't actually aware of the forms in wing chun? But is going to bless us with a bunch of hot air anyway, without even doing research?

Dude, read a book. Watch a video. Cut down on your posting time.

 

[wayfaring]

There are a bunch of ways to do it but remember, the idea is not to let you strike a "hard" target like the skull full force with your fingers. It's to let you strike "soft" targets reliably and provide a margin for error, if you miss.

People always bag on finger strikes, but there are certainly a large number of MMA fights I have seen recently stopped, and each fighter goes to their corner due to an eye poke. That ain't happenin on da street - TM.

 

[wayfaring]

Here is a short demo of how we use biu tze in LT. lineage.
The idea, as geezer stated, is not to strike with the finger tips, though in a given circumstance that could very well be the case; our understanding of the 3rd form is to create an elastic, whipping type force. So rather than send energy out to the finger tips, we send energy through the finger tips, making the arm very springy.

Whatever the idea may be, this video has some unrealistic aspects of it. I have yet to see a realistic encounter that results in one guy holding his hands down by his waist while another guy throws 18 speed techniques.

 

[wingchun100]

Wow. So the most vocal member of this forum isn't actually aware of the forms in wing chun? But is going to bless us with a bunch of hot air anyway, without even doing research?

Dude, read a book. Watch a video. Cut down on your posting time.

Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.

GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.

 

[wayfaring]

...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...

As several have mentioned, iron palm techniques are an area several utilize for this type of conditioning. Some families produce their own dit da jow, or iron palm medicine. Many are protective over disclosing this practice and method, as different iron palm training methods produce some different energy results.

 

[wayfaring]

Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.

GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.

I guess I have to disagree. I see him acting like a self appointed moderator on just about every thread. Telling people they are over the top. Telling other people a certain member is grumpy but not a troll.

He certainly posts a lot of content. My legitimate complaint about the last post you quoted and came to his defense about, he is saying basically he is too lazy to even go look up a video on a form, doesn't even know the name of a form, but is going to provide advice on how to train the content in the form. To me that does not describe an intelligent post or an open minded comment. Of course, YMMV.

As for you bringing up the moderator post, maybe you actually need to read the rules on the forum? It sounds a lot here like you are calling me a troll because I am bringing up a legitimate complaint about another's behavior.

 

[yak sao]

Whatever the idea may be, this video has some unrealistic aspects of it. I have yet to see a realistic encounter that results in one guy holding his hands down by his waist while another guy throws 18 speed techniques.

It's a demo