Birdshot in shotguns

[Grenadier]

I've sometimes had a debate with some folks, when it comes to smaller sized pellets being an effective manstopper from a 12 gauge shotgun.

Back when I lived in an apartment with thin sheetrock walls, I'd keep my Remington 870 loaded with two 12 gauge shells of #8 shot, followed with 3 shells of 12 gauge 00 Federal Tactical buckshot, since at close ranges, birdshot can do a flesh-flaying job quite nicely.

Some folks said "only use all 00 buckshot, since small shot will only piss off the attacker!"

Well, it looks like birdshot *can* be an effective manstopper. :rofl:

The results are a bit skewed, of course, since he did shoot himself, and with BOTH barrels:

http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/3225

YAKIMA -- Friends of a 20-year-old man who accidentally shot himself after putting a sawed-off shotgun in his pants initially claimed he was the victim of a drive-by shooting, Yakima police said.

The man, suffering from massive groin damage, was airlifted to a Seattle hospital where he was reported in satisfactory condition Monday.

 

[K31]

In our younger days a friend of mine used to demonstrate what a 12ga loaded with birdshot could do, by holding the muzzle several inches from a small tree trunk say, 4-5 inches in diameter, and pulling the trigger. If you can't guess this felled the tree in one shot. I've read "Box O' Truth" saying birdshot isn't a reliable stopper based on a couple of second hand accounts but my home defense gun has #4s in it.

 

[allenjp]

I always keep my home defense shotgun loaded with #8 birdshot, except the last two, which are 000 buck, because I have two kids asleep in other rooms, and I don't want bullets or pellets going through my walls if I can help it. I fired birdshot into the side of an old washing machine once from about 5 feet, and trust me, a couple of shots like that will make someone think twice about coming at you again (that is if it doesn't put them down for good). I figure if I can't stop them with the first three shots it's time to switch to something with a little more oomph behind it.

 

[Deaf Smith]

My wife used to work in the OR room at a major hospital that was in, uh, a crappy place.

She as been in CVICU, CVOR, OR, Truma I, and even director of CV nursing.

Well she told me long time ago that people shot with low powered rounds like .22, .25, .32 most of the time walked in talking! As the round's power increased, more were carried in (like 9mm, .38, .357, .45s)

The ONLY ones that just about always were carried in were shotgun wounds. The majority were birdshot wounds (but we are not talking Dick Cheney spraying with birdshot while dovehunter wounds.)

She said the wounds didn't look so bad once you cleaned the blood off (unless it was a contact wound) but when you opened them up, the shotgun had dammaged many organs and the bleeding was very hard to impossible to stop.

Just do this experiment. Get some kind of old meat, and shoot it at 3 feet with your favorite birdshot load and see the rat-hole wound. Then do it at 15 feet and see not only how close the pattern is but how deep it goes.

I can tell you it will reach the heart, lungs and liver easly. And it will also reach all those artieries.

I would not hesitate using bird shot at indoor range. The pattern will not spead out that far and the load will still penitrate to vitals. Nice part is the load won't go outside the target either. You will actually deliver the whole ouce and a quarter, plus shot collumn and any wadding, on target.

If you worry about penitration (or lack of it) just use high base or 'baby' magnums.

If, on the other hand, you want a general purpose shottie, get a vang comp and use buckshot. But that's another story.

Deaf

 

[chinto]

in an apartment building where your engagement range is say 10 yards max, bird shot is lethal!!! hell a load of 00 or 000 load of shot may kill the attacker and your neighbors 4 year old child in his bead through the wall!! in such a situation bird shot will kill as well as buckshot! now out on the farm at say 60 yards or 50M that bird shot is useless or nearly so, but 00 or 000 will kill that attacker. but at 50M or more I would prefer a rifle, say 30-06 or 308 cal ... but that is me.

 

[KenpoTex]

I personally don't use or recommend birdshot for SD/HD purposes. I've seen enough annecdotal evidence and had some personal experiences (various varmints and aggressive dogs) and I've found it to be a poor substitute for the bigger stuff (number 4 buck on up) when it comes to adequate penetration beyond anything but point-blank range.

To each his own though...

 

[Deaf Smith]

But Ken,

Appartments are point-blank range!

Deaf

 

[Big Don]

My Dad's idea of a demonstration to illustrate the destructive power of a 16 Ga shotgun, was to blow away a railroad tie he had planted upright out on the ranch. I was 8, he stood ten feet away and with one shot, birdshot cut that tie in half.

 

[allenjp]

With a 16 Guage huh? That's impressive!

.410 might not be a bad HD choice either...

 

[KenpoTex]

The problem, as I see it, is that as soon as the shot starts to spread, you no longer have a 1-1.25 oz. (546.8 grain) projectile, you have about four-hundred .003 oz. (1.3 grain) projectiles. I don't see a 1.3 grain projectile doing a whole lot. As I said, I've had occasion to shoot a few nasty critters and the birdshot did not perform well. One specific incident was a very aggressive dog that I shot with a load of 7 1/2s from about 8 feet. I hit him directly in the head and other than "deterring" him, it didn't do much. I had to follow up with a .357 to put him down.

My Dad's idea of a demonstration to illustrate the destructive power of a 16 Ga shotgun, was to blow away a railroad tie he had planted upright out on the ranch. I was 8, he stood ten feet away and with one shot, birdshot cut that tie in half.

Having shot a who knows how many thousands of rounds of 16 gauge at all manner of targets, I find it a little hard to believe that it cut a railroad-tie in half...just saying.


As I said...to each his own, if you feel that birdshot is the way to go for HD, by all means use what you prefer. I'm sure that a load of 8's will cause someone to slow down so you can throw some follow-up shots, However, I'll stick to my 00's.

 

[chinto]

The problem, as I see it, is that as soon as the shot starts to spread, you no longer have a 1-1.25 oz. (546.8 grain) projectile, you have about four-hundred .003 oz. (1.3 grain) projectiles. I don't see a 1.3 grain projectile doing a whole lot. As I said, I've had occasion to shoot a few nasty critters and the birdshot did not perform well. One specific incident was a very aggressive dog that I shot with a load of 7 1/2s from about 8 feet. I hit him directly in the head and other than "deterring" him, it didn't do much. I had to follow up with a .357 to put him down.

Having shot a who knows how many thousands of rounds of 16 gauge at all manner of targets, I find it a little hard to believe that it cut a railroad-tie in half...just saying.


As I said...to each his own, if you feel that birdshot is the way to go for HD, by all means use what you prefer. I'm sure that a load of 8's will cause someone to slow down so you can throw some follow-up shots, However, I'll stick to my 00's.

shot of any kind on impact spreads in a 45 degree and even more angle in the body. 5 bird shot in the liver and aorta is very very lethal.. and the 15 in the lungs will stop him as well. like I said, at 10 yards/9Meters very very lethal... at 50 go with #4 or 00 or even 000 buck.

 

[Skpotamus]

http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/25/...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

A site with birdshot tests side by side with buckshot and slugs at close range (3 yards).

None of the birdshot got the minimum FBI penetration requirements of 12" in ballistic gelatin with a maximum of 18" for handgun rounds. I don't beleive any of the pellets got past 7" of gelatin. Compare this to ballistic gelatin tests of .22LR's who typically get around 10" of penetration.

Buckshot penetrated 22" into ballistic gelatin, with a slug pentrating 17" into ordinance gelatin (note that a slug that doesn't deform can get overpenetration).

I would NOT recommend using birdshot to any of my students (NRA instructor) or anyone else for personal protection.

 

[KenpoTex]

http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/25/...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

Thanks for posting that, very informative.

I particularly liked this statement:

At the end of the day you must realize that anything that will penetrate a human enough to force them to stop an attack is going to also penetrate walls. The best way to avoid this is to prevent the situation where you must shoot, and practice enough to reliably hit the bad guy in a defensive situation.

 

[Tomu]

None of the birdshot got the minimum FBI penetration requirements of 12" in ballistic gelatin with a maximum of 18" for handgun rounds. I don't beleive any of the pellets got past 7" of gelatin. Compare this to ballistic gelatin tests of .22LR's who typically get around 10" of penetration.

Buckshot penetrated 22" into ballistic gelatin, with a slug pentrating 17" into ordinance gelatin (note that a slug that doesn't deform can get overpenetration).

While I do agree in part with the penetration issue, IMO when it comes to self defence energy deposition(see shock) is as important as penetration. This is why no one in their right mind would use FMJ rounds for personal defence.
My primary home defence weapon is mossberg 600 W/#4 hevi-13 from environmetal. Also have Taurus 7-round W/125 JHP's just to be safe.

 

[chinto]

http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/25/...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

A site with birdshot tests side by side with buckshot and slugs at close range (3 yards).

None of the birdshot got the minimum FBI penetration requirements of 12" in ballistic gelatin with a maximum of 18" for handgun rounds. I don't beleive any of the pellets got past 7" of gelatin. Compare this to ballistic gelatin tests of .22LR's who typically get around 10" of penetration.

Buckshot penetrated 22" into ballistic gelatin, with a slug pentrating 17" into ordinance gelatin (note that a slug that doesn't deform can get overpenetration).

I would NOT recommend using birdshot to any of my students (NRA instructor) or anyone else for personal protection.

interesting.. I have a shotgun that has first round bird shot, and the next round is #4 buck.. I always figured that the second round is for keeps... but I do not live in an apartment but a small house. in an apartment I might go to the very lightest buck as say 3rd round, but heavy end of bird shot would be the first two as I do not want to punch a hole through the wall and kill the neighbors in that situation. put 2 rounds of 12 bore shot with full power loads in to some one at point blank.. even bird shot will provably convince them to stop.. if not well that 3rd should be something guaranteed to be lethal. I am an ex EMT and I can tell you that shot is a very nasty thing to get shot with! but after it happens you want to be able to show you used all the care you could to preserve your life and not kill the neighbors while stopping the intruders!! that way you both hopefully didn't kill the neighbors, and if you did have some go though the wall the jury will provably say " crap he/she did every thing in the world not to have that happen!!

 

[KenpoTex]

While I do agree in part with the penetration issue, IMO when it comes to self defence energy deposition(see shock) is as important as penetration. This is why no one in their right mind would use FMJ rounds for personal defence.
My primary home defence weapon is mossberg 600 W/#4 hevi-13 from environmetal. Also have Taurus 7-round W/125 JHP's just to be safe.

Hmm...yes and no.

With high-velocity rifle rounds, you do get the nasty "temporary wound cavity." However, pistol rounds just don't have the speed necessary to accomplish this. It seems that the "hydrostatic shock" theories of people like Sanow and Marshall have been pretty much de-bunked by guys like Dr. Martin Fackler who basically states that the ONLY factors that affect a handgun round's "deadliness" are depth of penetration and permanent wound cavity a.k.a. the "crush cavity." That being the case, the advantage of a JHP over a FMJ is not because of any sort of "energy dump" that you get with a high-velocity rifle round, but because by expanding, bullet is increasing the diameter of the permanent wound channel.

 

[tellner]

I know it's anecdotal, but it's worth mentioning...

Let's call this acquaintance of mine Platypus Boy. For reasons which none of his friends can fathom the United States Army has made him a first lieutenant. He's currently serving his umptieth tour in Iraq.

Before he first went over PB expressed some reservations about the stopping power of the M4. The reservations were expressed in terms like "This stupid POS is going to get my *** killed." A wise friend of mine who has survived a lot of Bad Things sent him off with a case of 12g Remington Solid Copper Slugs and told him to get one of those short barreled Mossberg shotguns the military is fond of, the one with the bayonet lug.

PB scrounged up the Mossberg. Now he keeps it tied to his body most of the time. Lots of people on his own side would like to liberate it. The case of shells is long gone and has been replaced a few times. He says that nothing he has shot with one of them has ever gotten up again. The Army now recommends triple taps to guarantee a stop with the 5.56. He has never had to use more than two shots, seldom more than one. It has penetrated everything from mailboxes to cars. It will certainly penetrate drywall and 2x4s. Most of all it will penetrate men and make sure they stop whatever they are doing, usually forever.

 

[chinto]

http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/25/...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

A site with birdshot tests side by side with buckshot and slugs at close range (3 yards).

None of the birdshot got the minimum FBI penetration requirements of 12" in ballistic gelatin with a maximum of 18" for handgun rounds. I don't beleive any of the pellets got past 7" of gelatin. Compare this to ballistic gelatin tests of .22LR's who typically get around 10" of penetration.

Buckshot penetrated 22" into ballistic gelatin, with a slug pentrating 17" into ordinance gelatin (note that a slug that doesn't deform can get overpenetration).

I would NOT recommend using birdshot to any of my students (NRA instructor) or anyone else for personal protection.

well the romans found that 2 inches in the belly to be fatal.. and that does work to with a shotgun.. but like I said .. in an apartment situation I am also looking at being able to tell the jury and judge and DA and his grand jury .. " i shot the attacker 2 times with light shot and he was not down or dead.. so I fired the 3rd round that was much heavier! if you do have any collateral damage in that situation you will provably not do prison time.. if you just blast off with say 00 buck or even #4 and do end up wounding or killing some on on the other side of the wall, you got lots of legal problems besides the dead intruder to explain!!!! the lawyers and provably the DA will be looking to hang you if it was a kid or wife asleep or something!!! I can cycle a masburg 590 3 rounds in less then 4 seconds if I really have to.. most will stop for the first round if its a hit .. second if not and hell if you gota shoot 3 times with a shotgun.. the jury members are going to be saying I would have shot him 3 more times in terror!!!

 

[Skpotamus]

Fatal and incapacitating are not the same thing. Especially 2000 years ago before antibiotics were around. A minor wound then could become infected and kill.

The penetration numbers for the gelatin tests suggest that 00 buck wouldn't overpenetrate an average human body. Much less have enough power to blow through a wall or two and into another person.

FWIW, our military carries FMJ 9mm's. Pretty much all of Europe LEO's carry 9mm in FMJ as well from what I understand.

I can empty 15 rounds of 9mm in about 4 seconds. I sure as heck wouldnt want to be trading shots with someone in my house. The more shooting going on, the more likely I'm gonna get shot, or someone not in the fight is gonna get shot. I want to have to put as few shots in the direction of an intruder as possible to incapacitate them so they don't have time to shoot back.

Anytime you shoot someone, you're going to have legal problems. hell, there are people in prison today for shooting burlgars who shot at them first. Don't think that you're going to "legal proof" yourself by using smaller rounds.

Even if you don't get a criminal charge filed against you, you're almost certain to be sued in civil court. I could see some shyster lawyer using the birdshot against you. "You see ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant loaded his gun with a round designed to cause maximum pain without killing. If his life had truly been threatened, he wouldn't have been using such ammo, instead he was looking for a moment to main, cripple and enjoy the inteense pain he inflicted on my client.... now give my scumbag client all the defendants $$$" (somewhat paraphrased but you get the idea)

Just about any argument made about overkill by loading 00 buck or HP's can be justified by the question "what do my local LEO's carry?" Mine has 00 buck loaded into their shotguns, with slugs on hand for cover penetration if needed.

I would recommend on finding out what YOUR local LEO's carry, and use that.


Good luck and be safe.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've sometimes had a debate with some folks, when it comes to smaller sized pellets being an effective manstopper from a 12 gauge shotgun.

Back when I lived in an apartment with thin sheetrock walls, I'd keep my Remington 870 loaded with two 12 gauge shells of #8 shot, followed with 3 shells of 12 gauge 00 Federal Tactical buckshot, since at close ranges, birdshot can do a flesh-flaying job quite nicely.

Some folks said "only use all 00 buckshot, since small shot will only piss off the attacker!"

Well, it looks like birdshot *can* be an effective manstopper. :rofl:

The results are a bit skewed, of course, since he did shoot himself, and with BOTH barrels:

http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/3225

At hallway home defense range birdshot won't be distinguishable to 00 buck to the recipient. Keep in mind that until the shot pattern dissipates over distance, it's virtually a solid mass with the same mass as 00 buck.....it's only after it dissipates that the individual pellets lose effectiveness, which 00 buck only retains because of the individual pellets greater individual density....but while together, you'll find that they aren't that distinguishable.

Anyone who believes that getting hit with #8 at 5 feet is significantly 'less lethal' than 00 buck at 5 feet should try this experiment.......fill one sock with about 1/2 pound of #8 lead shot and another with 1/2 pound of 00 buck lead shot.......then have the most sadistic friend you know smack you in the back of the head alternately between the two as hard as he can, and see if you can distinguish one from the other.