Best place to hit first?

[still learning]

Hello, What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run/ for defence?...........Aloha

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Hello, What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run/ for defence?...........Aloha

(#1) The nose with a good hard shot. Causes pain, possible break, bleeding that hinders breathing and makes the eyes water obscuring the vision, not a terrubly hard target to hit.

(#2) The eyes with a sharp blow, poke or rake. Causes pain, eyes water up obscuring vision, most people (actaully everyone I've ever done this too but i don't wabt to say 100%) grab the eyes when the eyes are struck, poked, or raked which frees the defender from grabs and moves the attackers gaurd out of the way of other targets. Only listed #2 becasue it's slightly harder for a beginner to target than the nose.

(#3) The groin depending on the situation. If there is alot of adrenaline flowing the groin shot may be ineffective for a few seconds/ a minute but if not the gron shot can drop a person and cause most men to grab the affected area. See above about grabbing the hit area.

(#4) The throat. Causes pain, difficulty breathing, a hard blow makes the opponent grab the throat area to protect it (I want to say 100% from experience but you know....). The throat is listed 4th becaue it's the hardest to hit. Simply dipping the chin blocks it, but the other targets require a limb to get in the way.

This is my opinion and order of priority. Thoughts?

 

[dubljay]

I would have to agree the nose is an excellent diversion target. The watering of the eyes and the bleeding is usually enough of a distraction to exit the situation. I would caution people in striking to the throat. If you decide to strike to the throat be sure to hit the base of the throat to avoid collapsing the trachea. Also a hard strike to the stomach is enough to knock the wind out of a person or even knock them down.


-Josh

 

[searcher]

I agree with the nose, throat, and eyes. I do, however, often steer people away from the groin. It is the place that most guys expect to get hit so they tend to protect it better. You also have the risk of doubling them over and the defender gets a head-butt in the face. In place of the groin I tell them to stomp the instep. If they are close enough to go for the groin then they are close enough to get their instep smashed. JMHO.

 

[kenpochad]

kick to the knees or a nice tai kick above the knee

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

kick to the knees or a nice tai kick above the knee

How many times have you seen someone get kicked in the knee and instantly disabled from one blow?

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just can't see that as being a primary attack to a total beginner as the failure rate for an improper kick (meaning a beginner has to learn balance, power, targeting let alone shin conditioning for a thai kick) seems too high. Could you explain your reasoning so I could understand where you are coming from?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I agree with the nose, throat, and eyes. I do, however, often steer people away from the groin. It is the place that most guys expect to get hit so they tend to protect it better. You also have the risk of doubling them over and the defender gets a head-butt in the face. In place of the groin I tell them to stomp the instep. If they are close enough to go for the groin then they are close enough to get their instep smashed. JMHO.

I agree with most of what you said except one thing. The instep stomp. I tend to wear boots all the time. A stomp to the instep is not going to disable me or anyone else through boots. I think a total beginner needs to be taught targets that are generally unprotected by clothing year round. Thoughts?

respectfully,
James

 

[searcher]

Thoughts?

respectfully,
James

It is a nice tactic to teach them to hit unprotected targets. I still think that even a beginner can still inflict damage to the instep, even if the attacker has on boots. I wear steel toes all day for work and I had hurt my insteps by dropping small wrenches on them. So I think it is still a valid target. More so than the groin, since most guys expect to get attacked there.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I agree with most of what you said except one thing. The instep stomp. I tend to wear boots all the time. A stomp to the instep is not going to disable me or anyone else through boots. I think a total beginner needs to be taught targets that are generally unprotected by clothing year round. Thoughts?

respectfully,
James

To add to this, I would add the shin kick and then execute the instep stomp .

No muscle under the skin over the shin bone, makes this a real nice pain center, to attack to get a reaction.

I also teach that it is not always to location of the attack but the intent behind it. To that matter I also teach hammer fist to total untrained beginners. This up and down motion is a gross motor skill that can be used even underneath an adrenaline dump and stress. Everyone has seen the little kid who just pounds on the floor or the door or the adult as he is being corrected and or educated.

:asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I like this thread differing view points yet everyone is being respectful. The Shin Kick and Instep stuff???? I have my misgivings on those as first option targets. The instep for reasons that I mentioned in earlier posts (potentially covered by heavy material let alone the feet tend to move alot during confrontations making for harder tagets). The shin I can get with to a degree, but I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought). That being said I've spent a good number of years conditioning my shins in kickboxing. I'm used to getting hit there intentionally and unitentionally. I tend to favor targets (for TOTAL BEGINNERS) that are 1) relatively easy to hit/reach 2) tend to be unprotected by clothing that can dampen the blow, and c) cannot be physically conditioned to take punishment. That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that a) has the heavy shoes on to protect the feet, b) has tough shins and can take that blow c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach. But maybe that's my Kenpo bias where we consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets. Thoughts?

 

[Flatlander]

Clap a hand over the ear. Ouch.

I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought).

From this point of view, then, one must also be aware that there is a counter for everything. And a counter for those counters, etc. Given that, perhaps the shin can be an excellent target, as there is a large bundle of nerves there that makes a shin strike quite painful. Further, you may note that most would not, under these "circumstances", be thinking "protect the shins". They're thinking "watch the hands". I don't see why the shin can't be considered as useful a primary target as anything else suggested so far.

I think that if you're teaching your beginning student to "consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets", you may be getting a little deeper than they are prepared for, as a beginner. IMHO.

Also,

That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that .... c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach.

It seems to me that if a beginner does anything but run when facing a boxer that lives in the gym, they are going to get creamed irrespective of what primary target they have chosen.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I like this thread differing view points yet everyone is being respectful. The Shin Kick and Instep stuff???? I have my misgivings on those as first option targets. The instep for reasons that I mentioned in earlier posts (potentially covered by heavy material let alone the feet tend to move alot during confrontations making for harder tagets). The shin I can get with to a degree, but I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought). That being said I've spent a good number of years conditioning my shins in kickboxing. I'm used to getting hit there intentionally and unitentionally. I tend to favor targets (for TOTAL BEGINNERS) that are 1) relatively easy to hit/reach 2) tend to be unprotected by clothing that can dampen the blow, and c) cannot be physically conditioned to take punishment. That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that a) has the heavy shoes on to protect the feet, b) has tough shins and can take that blow c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach. But maybe that's my Kenpo bias where we consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets. Thoughts?

No disrespect, but a total beginner is more likely to be in a situation where they did not see it until it is too late and they are already grabbed.

So I see the Shin just as readily available as the the nose or any other part of the person.

Unless you step back, clear, point and go BANG. Or pull your sword just like Highlander, you are going to be in reach of each other.

So, like I said the shin to get them to react to the pain, as you either hammer fist them in the face, remember no experience, means most likely not to be able to target the nose directly, I agree aim center, but, it can be off. I also think that if the person bends over the same downard hammer fist gives you a shot at the back of the head.

So, why the Shin first? It gets people to react, and people do not think about it, or protect it. Where as everyone instinctively protects their face even with the "Oh my Gosh Block".

For a total newbie aka n00bie, or white belt or any thing else they get called, to be able to remember complex tasks and instructions and techniques and execute them under stress and or adrenaline dump is way too much to be expected.

I agree that if you teach this person a while they will not go to this all the time, and their first shot will change with preference.

And I also train for the opponent who my skill or better, and I assume the guy knows as much as I do or more, and has more experience. Yet, I have 19+ years experience in the martial arts, and my approach will not be like those. I also bounced, and faught, and did STUPID things that should have gotten me killed before I started training. I actually started training to understand how not to break people and send to the hospital all the time.

In that learning process, I found out that I had to resort back to strength techniques until I truly had them in my muscle memory and I was able to execute them with out thinking. I had to do this with lots of techniques I was looking for, as in Disarms of weapons and joint locks and throws, and the control in them so that I controlled but did not break them, and have to deal with those pesky police reports again. I really enjoyed the capability of being able to roll with the flow and move to the next technique as one was countered either on purpose or by instinct, and keep the pressure on, and the control on. I still work this, as I still need to improve, but I have no problems with what I have today, yet, it is not what a total no experience person will or can do.

Many times people do not even know there was danger or the possibility of danger, until it was too late, or the fates smile on them and it moves on. A total newbie with no experience needs simple tasks with simple instructions that they cannot screw up. KISS.


So disrespect meant, but I stand by what I said above and here as well, based upon my own learning process, executing before and after the learning process began, and from those I have taught.

:asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Clap a hand over the ear. Ouch.


From this point of view, then, one must also be aware that there is a counter for everything. And a counter for those counters, etc. Given that, perhaps the shin can be an excellent target, as there is a large bundle of nerves there that makes a shin strike quite painful. Further, you may note that most would not, under these "circumstances", be thinking "protect the shins". They're thinking "watch the hands". I don't see why the shin can't be considered as useful a primary target as anything else suggested so far.

I think that if you're teaching your beginning student to "consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets", you may be getting a little deeper than they are prepared for, as a beginner. IMHO.

Also,

It seems to me that if a beginner does anything but run when facing a boxer that lives in the gym, they are going to get creamed irrespective of what primary target they have chosen.

1)Clap the hear! great stuff. pain generated, equilibrium and concentration shot. Proceed to nearest exit.

2) I'm with ya for the 'counter for counter' that's fundamental martial arts. But I'm considering a move countered without doing anything. For example go ahead and kick ME in the shin I'll laugh it off because those nerve bundles aren't as active thanks to the conditioning so I don't have to think about protecting my shins anymore. It'll take someone several hard blows before I'm bothered. So the element of surprise is gone, I now know this person wants to fight, the first shot was wasted and now I'm on guard (placing my self in the attackers' shoes of course). That's why I stressed targets that cannot be conditioned. Unless someone wants to tell me how to condition the eyes, nose, etc. because I surely don't know. And I'm being serious there, not sarcastic.

3) we use the 'enviromental consideration' in our teaching process. WE INSTRUCTORS consider it when teaching people what to go for. You're absolutely right about that if I was teaching that to a beginner. Too much on the plate I might as well smack them around myself before they get to the street. 'Cause by the time they cycle through all the environental factors they'll be beaten badly anyway.

4)Yep the beginner has to run, but they have to earn the right to run away in many cases. I guess my point is I'd rather give them targets that cause immediate pain and disorientation/temporary blindness/etc. so they can flee immediately after the first pre-emptive strike. Not targets that require a follow up hit like the shin often does even when it's on someone without the conditioning. Like Mr. parson's stated the shin gets them to react followed by a good hammerfist or another follow-up shot. I'd rather give the beginner a fighting chance to run away after landing one blow as oppossed to a strategy that involves multiple blows that could turn into an exchange. Then flight is no longer available and buying the time to flee is priority one.

Thoughts? Love the intelligent discussion.

Respectfully,
James

 

[kenpochad]

How many times have you seen someone get kicked in the knee and instantly disabled from one blow?

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just can't see that as being a primary attack to a total beginner as the failure rate for an improper kick (meaning a beginner has to learn balance, power, targeting let alone shin conditioning for a thai kick) seems too high. Could you explain your reasoning so I could understand where you are coming from?

ok maybe the tai kick is kind of advanced but i think a front kick is pretty basic no ? I have witnessed a kick to the knee one time with a knife edge kick
and it worked I saw the guy that took the kick about a week or two later and he had his leg in a brace. But you probale have more experience than i do .

 

[Eldritch Knight]

Make a fist. Find a soft target. Hit it really, really hard. Repeat.

That's about all a beginner's going to remember without any real training. If you give them specific targets, they'll slow down and think during combat, giving their opponent a half-second more to get the drop on them. With this, they see and they act.

 

[clfsean]

Make a fist. Find a soft target. Hit it really, really hard. Repeat.

I like this. I may use this in class sometimes... if I haven't already.

It's simple, but effective without a lot of forethought or training necessary.

 

[searcher]

Clap a hand over the ear. Ouch.

This is an great target. It is often overlooked and is easily accessible. Another way to utilize the ears is to pull them off. It only takes 3-5 pounds of pressure to tear one off. A simple up and down jerk and it is in your hand. The only drawback is that they bleed something fierce.:erg:

 

[kenpochad]

This is an great target. It is often overlooked and is easily accessible. Another way to utilize the ears is to pull them off. It only takes 3-5 pounds of pressure to tear one off. A simple up and down jerk and it is in your hand. The only drawback is that they bleed something fierce.:erg:

The only bad part of this is you have to be able to set it up. As a beginner it’s sometime hard to close distance. It’s great if there right on you to clap the ears as you grab stick thumbs in the eyes and thin pull down. Riping the ears off.

 

[Cthulhu]

Very first should be:

Right foot - pavement
Left foot - pavement

Repeat as necessary.


Cthulhu

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Very first should be:

Right foot - pavement
Left foot - pavement

Repeat as necessary.


Cthulhu

But what if they just do that inplace? LOL details man! details! LOL