Best Martial Art to achieve my goal

[ukiltmybrutha]

It is coming down to this for me either:

muay thai and bjj

or

hapkido and judo

My only goal is self defense in a street situation.

I have the opportunity to go to classes which have either "combo".

I have done alot of research already on this topic and I am leaning towards a combo of hapkido and judo.

What would you do?

I don't mean to open up a can of worms or cause arguments, I would just like your opinions.

Thank you!

 

[terryl965]

I believe you need to do what your gut tells you.

 

[ceaer]

Have you visited both classes? If you prefer the judo/hapkido on paper, but the muay thai/bjj is a better "fit" you'd be better off taking that. What I mean is, what if the judo/hapkido class is stricter (or more lenient) than you're comfortable with? What if you have a personality conflict with the instructor or your fellow students? If you're not comfortable in the class you won't learn as readily and may even stop attending.
If you have visited both classes, go with the one you prefer. Either combination will help you with your goal, so chose based on the actual classes and the instructor.

 

[arnisador]

muay thai and bjj

or

hapkido and judo

My only goal is self defense in a street situation.

You have two great choices for that, then. All things being equal I'd recommend the MT/BJJ combo...the hard sparring in MT is a huge confidence boost and makes sure you have your range down...but all things are never equal. I knew a MT instructor who never let his students actually spar--they just air-boxed. Sheesh! It's hardly even MT at that point. Check out both schools and use your best judgment!

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Have you visited both classes? If you prefer the judo/hapkido on paper, but the muay thai/bjj is a better "fit" you'd be better off taking that. What I mean is, what if the judo/hapkido class is stricter (or more lenient) than you're comfortable with? What if you have a personality conflict with the instructor or your fellow students? If you're not comfortable in the class you won't learn as readily and may even stop attending.
If you have visited both classes, go with the one you prefer. Either combination will help you with your goal, so chose based on the actual classes and the instructor.

True indeed!

I have visited the judo/hapkido class, I have yet to visit the thai/bjj class.
I liked the instructor being omni-present.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

While I wish you luck in your journey, my advice would be neither. I'll explain.

BJJ, Judo and Muay Thai are all sport systems. So while they will give you good conditioning, as well as frequent sparring against opponents, they are simply not geared towards being the best street defence. That is not to say they cannot be used, nor that that they cannot be effective, just that that is not what they are designed for.

Sporting systems tend to give a number of habits that can actually go against you in a "fight" situation, including training for a long engagement (which is not what you will come up against in a fight), fights starting from a pre-arranged distance/opponent/condition (as in a tournament, again not like a real fight),various rules ingraining certain movement patterns (which may be dangerous in a real fight situation, such as allowing an opponent to get up when they fall, which can lead to the unconscious belief that the opponent in a real fight will allow the same, as well as only preparing for a single opponent/no weapons/single range etc) and many more.

The benefits of these systems include getting you used to hitting and being hit (specifically Muay Thai, but to a degree BJJ and Judo as well), but you should always remember the base philospphy of any art you are studying (and in these cases, the basic philosophy is to achieve success in a competitive bout by utilising a specific range - grappling for Judo and BJJ, striking and kicking for Muay Thai).

As for Hapkido, it is a more "complete" system in that it will give you grappling (but not as specialised for throwing as Judo, nor as ground-extensive as BJJ) as well as striking and kicking (very similar to Tae Kwon Do, rather than Muay Thai), and most schools will give you at least weapon defence aspects (usually knife and stick, sometimes pistol as well), if not actual weapons training. But it is again often a competitive system, comprising primarily the striking/kicking combined with some throwing for the competitive side of things. The Traditional side of things can be quite fine-motor, particularly when dealing with it's use of joint locks, which can be incredibly difficult to pull off in a fight without many years of very serious training (and even then, it's very hit-and-miss... reality isn't a Steven Seagal movie).

So each has their own issues with you wanting to simply be prepared for a possible street encounter, particularly if you are after those skills in a hurry. But when you start combining them, especially from the beginning, then all you will do is increase the amount of time it will take before you are skilled in either, let alone both. Each diffferent art will move, according to it's inherrent philosophy, with a different power source and rhythm. By training a particular martial art, you are attempting to ingrain the rhythm into your unconscious, the more realistic your teachers approach, and the more seriously you take the training, the quicker you will achieve this (there are also ways to fast-track your learning, but those will be up to your instructor to use if they choose, or know them).

By training in multiple systems, you are giving your unconscious multiple rhythms. This may sound good, but the unconscious will always choose the best of two options, so half your training (the half your unconscious deems "less powerful" usually) will basically be wasted, as under pressure you will go to only the one your unconscious believes is the better... and that isn't even always something you've trained. Especially if you are unsure of the power of each as the two conflicting rhythms contradict each other.

So what do I recommend? Well, if you simply want to get street-effective, and you want it quickly, I will rule out all but Muay Thai. Hapkido is simply too fine motor and will take longer to get street-effective, BJJ focuses on the ground, which can be very uncomfortable on concrete o rbroken glass on a bar floor, and opens you up to being kicked in the head by your opponents friends, or stabbed by the girlfriend of the guy your fighting (that is actually one of the most common stabbing assaults, at least here in Australia). Judo, like BJJ, focuses on grappling a single opponent, and that can give rise to the same issues as BJJ, as well as the lack of striking leaving you open to the opponents punches or weapons. Muay Thai will at least get you hitting and being hit, which is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to most martial artists.

But for the best, I would simply look to boxing. The strikes are very limited (essentailly eight - four each hand, with a few extras and some footwork and defences), so there is little to get in the way of your mind, as well as giving the benefits of hitting and being hit like Muay Thai. I would recommend looking to things like "Dirty Boxing", just to stop yourself being confined by the rules... because your opponent certainly won't be. If you are really interested, once you have some experience, check out some RBSD workshops if there are any around you, or at least get some DVDs (such as Richard Dimitri's Senshido concepts, or pretty much anything by Geoff Thompson. Animal Day is brilliant) just to get an understanding of how a fight really happens. Remember that anything that starts with a referee in a ring, no matter how "no-holds-barred" it is, is not real fighting as you would encounter on the street. It is simply competition, and that is a very different environment with very different needs.

The timeline between a real fight and a MMA bout is very different, and if you are training for one, then you are not training fof the other. In an MMA bout, you have any number of years of general preparation (your regular training), usually between 4-6 weeks specific preparation (training for a known upcoming fight, typically a known opponent who you can study form their tapes and records, and train for the expected techniques and excapes/defences), a pre-fight experience (getting to the ring, the ref's anouncements etc, usually getting a hit of adrenaline here already as your body prepares), the fight itself lasts in most cases for up to 15 minutes, broken into 3 x 5 minute rounds, with 2 minute breaks inbetween (this gives you an adrenaline rush, five minutes of very intensive activity, then a break in which you get an endorphine release, then a second adrenaline hit and repeat), finally followed by a very managed post-fight experience (with the trainers and physios to manage any physical injuries, as well as the come-down from the multiple adrenaline hits).

To compare that with a real violent encounter, the tmeline is usually something like this: Any amount of time in general preparation (like the general prep of an MMA fighter, except that the MMA fighter can limit his general prep to techniques and tactics that are within the defined parameters of his competition, whereas the street defence student cannot know exactly what they may encounter, so the general prep needs to cover as many different conditions as possible; striking, grappling, weapons, multiple opponents, ambush, intuition, talk-down [de-escalation], and much more), 0-60 seconds specific preparation (let's face it, the first warning most people are aware of that they are in a fight is "why does my nose hurt, and why am I bleeding?", so if you are aware enough to realise that someone is about to launch an attack [hit them first, for crying out loud!], you get very limited time to prepare for their attack [which is still unknown], their body type, and any other piece of information you may glean), 0 seconds - a few minutes of pre-fight (yelling, puching, or even your opponent feigning a lack of aggression to open you to a sucker-punch), the fight itself (which is typically from 3 to 10 seconds, sometimes longer, but typically not, and during which you will get a HUGE adrenaline rush, so it'll help if you've experienced adrenaline training as well), and then the post-fight (diring which you need to manage any injuries, the surrounding environment [does he have friends that are about to start something as well?], the security and police, any legal repercussions, and the endorphin release after the adrenaline burst, as well as getting home safely... just a note on this post-fight, after one encounter, I had to ask someone if they knew the number for the police. In Australia it is 000, I couldn't remember that at all. My mind simply shut down), which could last up to years, particularly the legal and emotional aspects.

Sorry, I've gotten off a bit, but I feel it's important for people to realise exactly what they are asking for. If you still want to study these combined teachings, I wish you luck, but be aware of the potential issues.

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Hi,

While I wish you luck in your journey, my advice would be neither. I'll explain.

BJJ, Judo and Muay Thai are all sport systems. So while they will give you good conditioning, as well as frequent sparring against opponents, they are simply not geared towards being the best street defence. That is not to say they cannot be used, nor that that they cannot be effective, just that that is not what they are designed for.

Sporting systems tend to give a number of habits that can actually go against you in a "fight" situation, including training for a long engagement (which is not what you will come up against in a fight), fights starting from a pre-arranged distance/opponent/condition (as in a tournament, again not like a real fight),various rules ingraining certain movement patterns (which may be dangerous in a real fight situation, such as allowing an opponent to get up when they fall, which can lead to the unconscious belief that the opponent in a real fight will allow the same, as well as only preparing for a single opponent/no weapons/single range etc) and many more.

The benefits of these systems include getting you used to hitting and being hit (specifically Muay Thai, but to a degree BJJ and Judo as well), but you should always remember the base philospphy of any art you are studying (and in these cases, the basic philosophy is to achieve success in a competitive bout by utilising a specific range - grappling for Judo and BJJ, striking and kicking for Muay Thai).

As for Hapkido, it is a more "complete" system in that it will give you grappling (but not as specialised for throwing as Judo, nor as ground-extensive as BJJ) as well as striking and kicking (very similar to Tae Kwon Do, rather than Muay Thai), and most schools will give you at least weapon defence aspects (usually knife and stick, sometimes pistol as well), if not actual weapons training. But it is again often a competitive system, comprising primarily the striking/kicking combined with some throwing for the competitive side of things. The Traditional side of things can be quite fine-motor, particularly when dealing with it's use of joint locks, which can be incredibly difficult to pull off in a fight without many years of very serious training (and even then, it's very hit-and-miss... reality isn't a Steven Seagal movie).

So each has their own issues with you wanting to simply be prepared for a possible street encounter, particularly if you are after those skills in a hurry. But when you start combining them, especially from the beginning, then all you will do is increase the amount of time it will take before you are skilled in either, let alone both. Each diffferent art will move, according to it's inherrent philosophy, with a different power source and rhythm. By training a particular martial art, you are attempting to ingrain the rhythm into your unconscious, the more realistic your teachers approach, and the more seriously you take the training, the quicker you will achieve this (there are also ways to fast-track your learning, but those will be up to your instructor to use if they choose, or know them).

By training in multiple systems, you are giving your unconscious multiple rhythms. This may sound good, but the unconscious will always choose the best of two options, so half your training (the half your unconscious deems "less powerful" usually) will basically be wasted, as under pressure you will go to only the one your unconscious believes is the better... and that isn't even always something you've trained. Especially if you are unsure of the power of each as the two conflicting rhythms contradict each other.

So what do I recommend? Well, if you simply want to get street-effective, and you want it quickly, I will rule out all but Muay Thai. Hapkido is simply too fine motor and will take longer to get street-effective, BJJ focuses on the ground, which can be very uncomfortable on concrete o rbroken glass on a bar floor, and opens you up to being kicked in the head by your opponents friends, or stabbed by the girlfriend of the guy your fighting (that is actually one of the most common stabbing assaults, at least here in Australia). Judo, like BJJ, focuses on grappling a single opponent, and that can give rise to the same issues as BJJ, as well as the lack of striking leaving you open to the opponents punches or weapons. Muay Thai will at least get you hitting and being hit, which is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to most martial artists.

But for the best, I would simply look to boxing. The strikes are very limited (essentailly eight - four each hand, with a few extras and some footwork and defences), so there is little to get in the way of your mind, as well as giving the benefits of hitting and being hit like Muay Thai. I would recommend looking to things like "Dirty Boxing", just to stop yourself being confined by the rules... because your opponent certainly won't be. If you are really interested, once you have some experience, check out some RBSD workshops if there are any around you, or at least get some DVDs (such as Richard Dimitri's Senshido concepts, or pretty much anything by Geoff Thompson. Animal Day is brilliant) just to get an understanding of how a fight really happens. Remember that anything that starts with a referee in a ring, no matter how "no-holds-barred" it is, is not real fighting as you would encounter on the street. It is simply competition, and that is a very different environment with very different needs.

The timeline between a real fight and a MMA bout is very different, and if you are training for one, then you are not training fof the other. In an MMA bout, you have any number of years of general preparation (your regular training), usually between 4-6 weeks specific preparation (training for a known upcoming fight, typically a known opponent who you can study form their tapes and records, and train for the expected techniques and excapes/defences), a pre-fight experience (getting to the ring, the ref's anouncements etc, usually getting a hit of adrenaline here already as your body prepares), the fight itself lasts in most cases for up to 15 minutes, broken into 3 x 5 minute rounds, with 2 minute breaks inbetween (this gives you an adrenaline rush, five minutes of very intensive activity, then a break in which you get an endorphine release, then a second adrenaline hit and repeat), finally followed by a very managed post-fight experience (with the trainers and physios to manage any physical injuries, as well as the come-down from the multiple adrenaline hits).

To compare that with a real violent encounter, the tmeline is usually something like this: Any amount of time in general preparation (like the general prep of an MMA fighter, except that the MMA fighter can limit his general prep to techniques and tactics that are within the defined parameters of his competition, whereas the street defence student cannot know exactly what they may encounter, so the general prep needs to cover as many different conditions as possible; striking, grappling, weapons, multiple opponents, ambush, intuition, talk-down [de-escalation], and much more), 0-60 seconds specific preparation (let's face it, the first warning most people are aware of that they are in a fight is "why does my nose hurt, and why am I bleeding?", so if you are aware enough to realise that someone is about to launch an attack [hit them first, for crying out loud!], you get very limited time to prepare for their attack [which is still unknown], their body type, and any other piece of information you may glean), 0 seconds - a few minutes of pre-fight (yelling, puching, or even your opponent feigning a lack of aggression to open you to a sucker-punch), the fight itself (which is typically from 3 to 10 seconds, sometimes longer, but typically not, and during which you will get a HUGE adrenaline rush, so it'll help if you've experienced adrenaline training as well), and then the post-fight (diring which you need to manage any injuries, the surrounding environment [does he have friends that are about to start something as well?], the security and police, any legal repercussions, and the endorphin release after the adrenaline burst, as well as getting home safely... just a note on this post-fight, after one encounter, I had to ask someone if they knew the number for the police. In Australia it is 000, I couldn't remember that at all. My mind simply shut down), which could last up to years, particularly the legal and emotional aspects.

Sorry, I've gotten off a bit, but I feel it's important for people to realise exactly what they are asking for. If you still want to study these combined teachings, I wish you luck, but be aware of the potential issues.

WOW! You are as analytical as I am. I am speechless! Thank you!

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Hi,

While I wish you luck in your journey, my advice would be neither. I'll explain.

BJJ, Judo and Muay Thai are all sport systems. So while they will give you good conditioning, as well as frequent sparring against opponents, they are simply not geared towards being the best street defence. That is not to say they cannot be used, nor that that they cannot be effective, just that that is not what they are designed for.

Sporting systems tend to give a number of habits that can actually go against you in a "fight" situation, including training for a long engagement (which is not what you will come up against in a fight), fights starting from a pre-arranged distance/opponent/condition (as in a tournament, again not like a real fight),various rules ingraining certain movement patterns (which may be dangerous in a real fight situation, such as allowing an opponent to get up when they fall, which can lead to the unconscious belief that the opponent in a real fight will allow the same, as well as only preparing for a single opponent/no weapons/single range etc) and many more.

The benefits of these systems include getting you used to hitting and being hit (specifically Muay Thai, but to a degree BJJ and Judo as well), but you should always remember the base philospphy of any art you are studying (and in these cases, the basic philosophy is to achieve success in a competitive bout by utilising a specific range - grappling for Judo and BJJ, striking and kicking for Muay Thai).

As for Hapkido, it is a more "complete" system in that it will give you grappling (but not as specialised for throwing as Judo, nor as ground-extensive as BJJ) as well as striking and kicking (very similar to Tae Kwon Do, rather than Muay Thai), and most schools will give you at least weapon defence aspects (usually knife and stick, sometimes pistol as well), if not actual weapons training. But it is again often a competitive system, comprising primarily the striking/kicking combined with some throwing for the competitive side of things. The Traditional side of things can be quite fine-motor, particularly when dealing with it's use of joint locks, which can be incredibly difficult to pull off in a fight without many years of very serious training (and even then, it's very hit-and-miss... reality isn't a Steven Seagal movie).

So each has their own issues with you wanting to simply be prepared for a possible street encounter, particularly if you are after those skills in a hurry. But when you start combining them, especially from the beginning, then all you will do is increase the amount of time it will take before you are skilled in either, let alone both. Each diffferent art will move, according to it's inherrent philosophy, with a different power source and rhythm. By training a particular martial art, you are attempting to ingrain the rhythm into your unconscious, the more realistic your teachers approach, and the more seriously you take the training, the quicker you will achieve this (there are also ways to fast-track your learning, but those will be up to your instructor to use if they choose, or know them).

By training in multiple systems, you are giving your unconscious multiple rhythms. This may sound good, but the unconscious will always choose the best of two options, so half your training (the half your unconscious deems "less powerful" usually) will basically be wasted, as under pressure you will go to only the one your unconscious believes is the better... and that isn't even always something you've trained. Especially if you are unsure of the power of each as the two conflicting rhythms contradict each other.

So what do I recommend? Well, if you simply want to get street-effective, and you want it quickly, I will rule out all but Muay Thai. Hapkido is simply too fine motor and will take longer to get street-effective, BJJ focuses on the ground, which can be very uncomfortable on concrete o rbroken glass on a bar floor, and opens you up to being kicked in the head by your opponents friends, or stabbed by the girlfriend of the guy your fighting (that is actually one of the most common stabbing assaults, at least here in Australia). Judo, like BJJ, focuses on grappling a single opponent, and that can give rise to the same issues as BJJ, as well as the lack of striking leaving you open to the opponents punches or weapons. Muay Thai will at least get you hitting and being hit, which is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to most martial artists.

But for the best, I would simply look to boxing. The strikes are very limited (essentailly eight - four each hand, with a few extras and some footwork and defences), so there is little to get in the way of your mind, as well as giving the benefits of hitting and being hit like Muay Thai. I would recommend looking to things like "Dirty Boxing", just to stop yourself being confined by the rules... because your opponent certainly won't be. If you are really interested, once you have some experience, check out some RBSD workshops if there are any around you, or at least get some DVDs (such as Richard Dimitri's Senshido concepts, or pretty much anything by Geoff Thompson. Animal Day is brilliant) just to get an understanding of how a fight really happens. Remember that anything that starts with a referee in a ring, no matter how "no-holds-barred" it is, is not real fighting as you would encounter on the street. It is simply competition, and that is a very different environment with very different needs.

The timeline between a real fight and a MMA bout is very different, and if you are training for one, then you are not training fof the other. In an MMA bout, you have any number of years of general preparation (your regular training), usually between 4-6 weeks specific preparation (training for a known upcoming fight, typically a known opponent who you can study form their tapes and records, and train for the expected techniques and excapes/defences), a pre-fight experience (getting to the ring, the ref's anouncements etc, usually getting a hit of adrenaline here already as your body prepares), the fight itself lasts in most cases for up to 15 minutes, broken into 3 x 5 minute rounds, with 2 minute breaks inbetween (this gives you an adrenaline rush, five minutes of very intensive activity, then a break in which you get an endorphine release, then a second adrenaline hit and repeat), finally followed by a very managed post-fight experience (with the trainers and physios to manage any physical injuries, as well as the come-down from the multiple adrenaline hits).

To compare that with a real violent encounter, the tmeline is usually something like this: Any amount of time in general preparation (like the general prep of an MMA fighter, except that the MMA fighter can limit his general prep to techniques and tactics that are within the defined parameters of his competition, whereas the street defence student cannot know exactly what they may encounter, so the general prep needs to cover as many different conditions as possible; striking, grappling, weapons, multiple opponents, ambush, intuition, talk-down [de-escalation], and much more), 0-60 seconds specific preparation (let's face it, the first warning most people are aware of that they are in a fight is "why does my nose hurt, and why am I bleeding?", so if you are aware enough to realise that someone is about to launch an attack [hit them first, for crying out loud!], you get very limited time to prepare for their attack [which is still unknown], their body type, and any other piece of information you may glean), 0 seconds - a few minutes of pre-fight (yelling, puching, or even your opponent feigning a lack of aggression to open you to a sucker-punch), the fight itself (which is typically from 3 to 10 seconds, sometimes longer, but typically not, and during which you will get a HUGE adrenaline rush, so it'll help if you've experienced adrenaline training as well), and then the post-fight (diring which you need to manage any injuries, the surrounding environment [does he have friends that are about to start something as well?], the security and police, any legal repercussions, and the endorphin release after the adrenaline burst, as well as getting home safely... just a note on this post-fight, after one encounter, I had to ask someone if they knew the number for the police. In Australia it is 000, I couldn't remember that at all. My mind simply shut down), which could last up to years, particularly the legal and emotional aspects.

Sorry, I've gotten off a bit, but I feel it's important for people to realise exactly what they are asking for. If you still want to study these combined teachings, I wish you luck, but be aware of the potential issues.

Well I told you that I was analytical, so I am going to ask you for your thoughts on a thing or two if you don't mind.

First of all, what is "fine motor", and is it a good or bad thing in the context of street fighting?

Secondly, the class integrates yudo and hapkido simultaneously. I am not sure if I mentioned that. I am not sure if that in itself could minimize if not negate the effects that you were mentioning. Maybe it could make things even "worse" in a street fighting situation?

Third, the BJJ option is probably not going to be possible for me due to scheduling. The school wants me to learn Muai Thai only and advises that the BJJ option that they teach during the time frame that I am looking at is too advanced for me.

I don't see any Boxing options in my area. I have a nice full size punching bag that I could use during my in between days that I am taking the Judo Hapkido combo. I would also love to grab the videos that you are talking about.

...or in your thinking would that confuse the mind even more?

(Maybe now that I have explained that the class itself integrates both Judo and Hapkido simultaneously you might think differently for better or worse)

I would argue on the used to being punched part, but you have might have more experience than me in that area. I still think that dealing with being punched is half psychological...but I am sure that you are talking about the physical effects to the body and how it may effect the outcome of a street fight.

From what I can see of Hapkido, I like the low shin kicks and the unexpectedness of that on the street.

I also like the "EVIL" potential that I see in Judo. Being able to throw someone on asphalt/concrete (gravel in these parts lol) as opposed to being able to throw them on a mat.

I believe that some law enforcement officers attend this particular class (not sure if it is true), but if it is I am sure that they see plenty of "street" action.

Why can't things be like a Segal Movie. He kicks butt! I am serious even though you are probably laughing.

Thank you for that awesome post, but I am also a deep thinker.

Here is the location that I am considering going to, if you haven't had time to look at my other post.

http://seongsacademy.tripod.com/

The teacher is an 8th degree black belt now. (I know many say not to look at belts that way...but part of me says that there is no substitute for raw experience...even though the experience may not come in street fighting...but then again I don't know him well enough to verify that it hasn't)

I quite enjoyed watching this guy (who appears to be in his 60's or perhaps even older) throw a 300 pound guy around like nothing...but I guess that happens all the time...still I enjoyed it!

Any thoughts?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Well, that's a decent little list there, I was going ot head off, but you've kept me here for another few moments, I guess...

Here we go!

Well I told you that I was analytical, so I am going to ask you for your thoughts on a thing or two if you don't mind.

First of all, what is "fine motor", and is it a good or bad thing in the context of street fighting?

"Fine motor" skills are any type of dextrous action which require a relatively large degree of control and skill to perform. These include things like intricate wrist locks and limb controls, strikes with small body weapons to small targets (in my system, we have a strike called a Boshi ken, which is the tip of the thumb, and is used to very specific targets. This would be a fine-motor strike), complicated combinations, and actions which require a great deal of co-ordination (for example, there are some very complicated throws around which can be very hard to perform without a great deal of practice).

These movements are very good for developing precision, co-ordination, balance, and many other benefits, but it is exactly this type of skill which is the first to go under the constricting effects of adrenaline. Remember, adrenaline will have a number of effects, including tunnelling your vision, and removing your ability to perform fine motor actions, as well as making it harder for you to do higher brain functions such as form complex sentences. This is why people start talking in short single syllable phrases when they get upset/adrenalised ("Hey! You! Over Here!" [I'm leaving the swearing out here for civilities sake, but I'm sure yo uget the idea]).

Under the effects of adrenaline, you will need to rely on what are refered to as Gross Motor actions. These are the opposite to the Fine Motor actions, in that they are often large, simple actions. Instead of performing a technical wrist-lock/arm-bar combination, you bring you arm down over the opponents elbow to damage it. These will be the skills available to you in a fight, so they should make up the bulk of your street defence training. If they don't, then your teacher is not preparing you for the realities of a violent encounter. Just so you know.

Secondly, the class integrates yudo and hapkido simultaneously. I am not sure if I mentioned that. I am not sure if that in itself could minimize if not negate the effects that you were mentioning. Maybe it could make things even "worse" in a street fighting situation?

Okay, Yudo is the Korean take on Judo, so if they are taught together, then that could limit a degree of conflict between the arts. But remember, the grappling portion of Hapkido is not based on Judo, but Daito Ryu (in most likelihood, anyway...) so there will still be a slight incongruence. But my recommendation would still be Muay Thai out of the available options listed.

Third, the BJJ option is probably not going to be possible for me due to scheduling. The school wants me to learn Muai Thai only and advises that the BJJ option that they teach during the time frame that I am looking at is too advanced for me.

Good! No offence to the BJJ guys out there, I've trained with a few, including taking a workshop under Royce Gracie, and on the ground I firmly believe that there is no-one better (but then again, that is the benefit of over-specialising), but I still don't like it as a self defence system to stake your life on.

Amongst other things previously listed, the philosophy tends to give students/practitioners a certain approach to any possible violent encounter, in which they learn through success in competition that there is one answer to an aggressive person, which is to choke them out. One of our Black Belts a number of years ago went along to a BJJ class to gain some wider experience (we encourage such things), and after the class, he was talking with the instructor.

The instructor was explaining what BJJ was all about, and said that "If I was in a bar, and I turn around and accidentally spill a guys drink on him, he gets angry, I just choke him out! So, what's Ninjutsu all about?"

Our Black Belt answered "It's about buying the guy another drink". That is the essence of self defence, by the way, being aware enough to recognise how to handle any situation. Our guy could have said, "Well, I'd kick under his knee so he buckled, then a palm to the jaw to knock him out...", but that wasn't necessary. And he recognised that, so he gave a response which removed any violence from the equation.

I don't see any Boxing options in my area. I have a nice full size punching bag that I could use during my in between days that I am taking the Judo Hapkido combo. I would also love to grab the videos that you are talking about.

...or in your thinking would that confuse the mind even more?

Not confuse you so much, but if you go through it properly it can be very confronting and scary. But it will give you better preparation than most classes (particularly if you get some like-minded friends from the class and get to go through the tapes content with them. It really is the only way to get something of value out of any tape/book etc). The bag is a very good idea, though. Very good for the Muay Thai, and you will find more use for from that particular art.

(Maybe now that I have explained that the class itself integrates both Judo and Hapkido simultaneously you might think differently for better or worse)

I would argue on the used to being punched part, but you have might have more experience than me in that area. I still think that dealing with being punched is half psychological...but I am sure that you are talking about the physical effects to the body and how it may effect the outcome of a street fight.

Yes, a great part of it is dealing with the psychological effects, but there are also physical effects not to be underestimated. To get an idea of those, a good drill (from RBSD classes, by the way) is to point at the ground, and spinning around your finger for about 10 seconds as fast as you can. As you get up, defend against an incoming attack, or strike a pad. That is actually a pretty good simulation of being king-hit, the same feelings of nausea and dizziness that you get from a good knock to the skull.

From what I can see of Hapkido, I like the low shin kicks and the unexpectedness of that on the street.

Which are also a hallmark of Muay Thai, so you know.

I also like the "EVIL" potential that I see in Judo. Being able to throw someone on asphalt/concrete (gravel in these parts lol) as opposed to being able to throw them on a mat.

Just realise that in a number of throws, you will need to take care of yourself hitting that same concrete, usually with your knees. Not really fun, although admittedly better than your head hitting. Also, people tend to resist a throw, and it takes longer to get than a punch which can leave you open to groups/friends/weapons. Which is why I'm recommending the striking based arts (boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai).

I believe that some law enforcement officers attend this particular class (not sure if it is true), but if it is I am sure that they see plenty of "street" action.

Much though I respect the job that LE Officers do, just because they are police (or military, or security for that matter), doesn't mean that they aer necessarily educated when it comes to violence. Again, a police officer, just like a military person, covers a great deal of information required for their job in training, and only a small aspect of that is related to defence. In fact, even if an officer has an outside martial training, that just means that outside his police job he does a martial art. It does not mean that that training is street effective, or even geared towards the street. And often the hand-to-hand portion of any LEOs training is very brief, and based on a high level of restrictions sa to what the officer can and cannot do, so much of what is taught in a class may not even be available for the LEO to use for fear of opening the force up for lawsuits.

In Victoria (Australia), about 5 years ago, the police force employed the services of one of their members who trained in a form of Jujutsu to teach the officers "pressure point" fighting so they could "non-violently" remove protestors and the like. Nothing against the guy they chose to teach, but he didn't really know how to structure a training program for the police force (he was never taught or accredited to do such), and was simply chosen because of his position (he was a police officer) and his training in jujutsu. The first time it was used was on University students having a sit-down protest who refused to move on after their protest had ended, so the police officers applied their newly-learned (and not refined) techniques. The footage on the news that night of 20 year old girls having the sides of their necks pinched and pulled out about an inch or two on either side as they screamed and were dragged away (by their necks) ensured that the Victorian police never used the tactics again.

So while it's a good marketing point to say "There are police officers training with us!", it's not really an indication of anything other than that some of the students happen to be police officers. And for the record, we have Federal Police who are Black Belts with our organisation, and my Chief Instructor is accredited by our Government to create Police and Military Training Programs (which generally are 6-8 hours long if you're lucky, and are entirely DefTac - Defensive Tactics Programs).

Why can't things be like a Segal Movie. He kicks butt! I am serious even though you are probably laughing.

Thank you for that awesome post, but I am also a deep thinker.

Here is the location that I am considering going to, if you haven't had time to look at my other post.

http://seongsacademy.tripod.com/

The teacher is an 8th degree black belt now. (I know many say not to look at belts that way...but part of me says that there is no substitute for raw experience...even though the experience may not come in street fighting...but then again I don't know him well enough to verify that it hasn't)

I quite enjoyed watching this guy (who appears to be in his 60's or perhaps even older) throw a 300 pound guy around like nothing...but I guess that happens all the time...still I enjoyed it!

Well, I would say that yes, it probably does look very impressive, the question would be if that was against a resisting opponent, or just a demo with a non-resisting partner (compliant training). If compliant, it's still good, as that is the way training should at least start, and all learning should begin wiht any new skill. But it is a very different thing when someone is resisting, and that should always be taken into account.

The other thing I would say is that if this gentleman is 8th Dan, and in his 60s, then I would surmise that he's probably (hopefully!) been at it quite a while... how long do you expect to be training before you get that level of skill? If time isn't a factor, then great, but if you are expecting to be street effective at throwing 300lb men within 3 months, maybe not.

Any thoughts?

The last thing I will say here is that the single most important factor when choosing your new school is just that: your new school. Too often people get all caught up in this art versus that art, and frankly, that is probably the least important factor. The most important is the instructor and the school, can you see yourself in that class? Does the instructor strike you as someone you can respect and learn from, or does he seem like someone that lacks the ability to take you where you need or want to go? Are the students happy there, or are they scared? Are they socially well adjusted, or are they just thugs and bullies in fancy pyjamas'? Are the students showing you clear development form beginner to instructor, or is it just a talented man leading a group that don't seem to "get it" (ie, can the instructor teach)? These are far more important than which particular art you learn. The mechanics of most arts can be utilised, but if you are being taught badly, that can hold you back for decades.

Hope this helped a bit...

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Hi,

Well, that's a decent little list there, I was going ot head off, but you've kept me here for another few moments, I guess...

Here we go!



The last thing I will say here is that the single most important factor when choosing your new school is just that: your new school. Too often people get all caught up in this art versus that art, and frankly, that is probably the least important factor. The most important is the instructor and the school, can you see yourself in that class? Does the instructor strike you as someone you can respect and learn from, or does he seem like someone that lacks the ability to take you where you need or want to go? Are the students happy there, or are they scared? Are they socially well adjusted, or are they just thugs and bullies in fancy pyjamas'? Are the students showing you clear development form beginner to instructor, or is it just a talented man leading a group that don't seem to "get it" (ie, can the instructor teach)? These are far more important than which particular art you learn. The mechanics of most arts can be utilised, but if you are being taught badly, that can hold you back for decades.

Hope this helped a bit...

Wow! I know there is a LARGE difference in the time zones between where I am now (Eastern Time Zone of the USA) so I won't hold you up any more.

I read through what you have said here carefully. I have a question/though or 2 left, but please do whatever it is that you need to do.

Excellent thoughts!

I will post what remains on my mind next.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, it's about 3am here, and I'm supposed to be up for work in about 3 hours, so I should head off... but I'll give you a few minutes. If not, then I'll be back tomorrow, don't worry about that.

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

From my analysis, I think that I might still go with Hapkido/Yudo. This is not to be contrary to your ideas in any way.

Your views helped clarify something for me. In fact, it hit the nail on the head for me. I did like what I saw when I viewed the Hapkido/Yudo class. I liked what I saw from the instructor.

It seemed like he genuinely cared about his students. I am a pretty poor judge of character, but in this case I really do believe it. To me, that ranks pretty high on the importanance scale.

You are right concerning expectations.

If I go the Hapkido/Yudo route, I will have to stick at it for a long time.

However, I do have the Tae Kwon Do experience. Yes it was 20 yrs ago and I was 14 back then, but I have grounds to believe it is like a bike in that you can get right back on it no matter how long it has been since you have ridden. It might be VERY weird at first, but eventually it will come back and be laughable.

I think that with the Tae Kwon Do experience, I have a little bit more striking experience than going in cold turkey.

It might be far fetched, but since they are all Korean based martial arts this could work for me overall.

I will overall have to reduce my expectations as far as how LONG it will take me....

...but I will learn new expectations with the videos that you suggest.

Unfortunately, I will have to watch the video alone. No friends and no family besides my wife and kids.

Couldn't I switch to Muay Thai at some point?

I know for a fact that around here fights DO often go to the ground. They can also last a LONG time if they aren't broken up.

I got what you are saying about the adrenalin, I am wondering if the above combination could still bring me as close to my goal of street defense.

Gross motor actions is where it is at...except for the fact that it gets taken to the ground an awful lot here in my experience.

I have much to think about. Conditioning and the ground game are important to me as well.

Any closing arguments loool? (When you are ready of course)

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Go with whatever you want but there is something I don't get here.

I understand a combinations Muay Thai and BJJ (thought of it myself from time to time) and I would understand a combination of Taekwondo and Judo and I have said to people that I always felt a combination of Wing Chun and Judo (Shuaijiao would be better :EGwould be a good one but I don't understand a combination of Judo and Hapkido since Hapkido has a whole lot of takedowns and throws already. It seems to me like Hapkido plus judo is kind of like a combination of hapkido and 1/2 hapkido, but then maybe that is just me.

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

...and please don't take any more time on this tonight bud! You need your rest!

It can wait you know!

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Go with whatever you want but there is something I don't get here.

I understand a combinations Muay Thai and BJJ (thought of it myself from time to time) and I would understand a combination of Taekwondo and Judo and I have said to people that I always felt a combination of Wing Chun and Judo (Shuaijiao would be better :EGwould be a good one but I don't understand a combination of Judo and Hapkido since Hapkido has a whole lot of takedowns and throws already. It seems to me like Hapkido plus judo is kind of like a combination of hapkido and 1/2 hapkido, but then maybe that is just me.

So you are saying that you aren't sure why there would be THAT much focus on takedowns and throws?

I agree, but for someone who has next to no experience with throws it might work....but I still see where you are coming from I believe.

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Sorry to be over-analytical people. I have been accused of being so in the past.

I can handle it though! I just don't want to take up too much of your precious time as a result!!

I think we have about covered the ups and downs though!

 

[Xue Sheng]

So you are saying that you aren't sure why there would be THAT much focus on takedowns and throws?

I agree, but for someone who has next to no experience with throws it might work....but I still see where you are coming from I believe.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with it, I just don't understand the combination as much as I would with a style that focus more on kicks and strikes in combination with one that tends towards take downs, throws and grappling. Actually from your list I like them all.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, just before I head off...

From my analysis, I think that I might still go with Hapkido/Yudo. This is not to be contrary to your ideas in any way.

Your views helped clarify something for me. In fact, it hit the nail on the head for me. I did like what I saw when I viewed the Hapkido/Yudo class. I liked what I saw from the instructor.

Good. The instructor is always the best reason to join any particular martial art class.

It seemed like he genuinely cared about his students. I am a pretty poor judge of character, but in this case I really do believe it. To me, that ranks pretty high on the importanance scale.

You are right concerning expectations.

If I go the Hapkido/Yudo route, I will have to stick at it for a long time.

However, I do have the Tae Kwon Do experience. Yes it was 20 yrs ago and I was 14 back then, but I have grounds to believe it is like a bike in that you can get right back on it no matter how long it has been since you have ridden. It might be VERY weird at first, but eventually it will come back and be laughable.

Yes, all agreed. The striking/kicking portion of Hapkido shares very similar roots to Tae Kwon Do, so that will be some comfort in terms of familarity for you, which can help acclimatise to the rest of the art.

I think that with the Tae Kwon Do experience, I have a little bit more striking experience than going in cold turkey.

It might be far fetched, but since they are all Korean based martial arts this could work for me overall.

I will overall have to reduce my expectations as far as how LONG it will take me....

...but I will learn new expectations with the videos that you suggest.

Unfortunately, I will have to watch the video alone. No friends and no family besides my wife and kids.

You could find some new friends with similar interests at the school... particularly if there are a number of LEOs. Get to know them, and bring up the fact that you were recommended, were they interested as well? It'd be good to be able to try this stuff out with someone...

Couldn't I switch to Muay Thai at some point?

You could, certainly. But the methods of moving will be different (in terms of mechanics and rhythms) from the Hapkido kicking and striking form, so be prepared for that. You may also find as time goes on that you get all you need from the Hapkido side of things anyway, particularly if you are giving it a number of years to get to the heart of (for the record, I would advise against changing arts until you have at least 3-4 years solidly in one or the other).

I know for a fact that around here fights DO often go to the ground. They can also last a LONG time if they aren't broken up.

Okay, here we get into a very grey area... BJJ guys are very fond of saying that 90% of fights go to the ground, and often use things such as the UFC to back that up. That has a couple of problems, in that the UFC, brutal though it may be at times, is not a real fight on many levels. And going to ground in the street is often not a good idea. If you are on concrete or asphalt, you will do some pretty bad damage to your knees and probably hands as well. If you are in a bar/club setting, be aware of broken glass that is often on the ground, as well as the sticky liquids that made their way to the ground before you (and I'm not willing to guess what the make up of those liquids are, are you?).

Most fights that do go to ground don't go there deliberately. It is a result of slipping, losing balance, tripping over an obstacle, being tackled and falling over, being pulled down when the other guy trips, or some other variation. There is often some rolling around on the ground, and then at some point one or both of you will get up. If it continues, that could happen again and again.

But when on the ground you are far more vulnerable to being kicked by his friends, or stabbed by his girlfriend (the most common cause of stab assaults, by the way), so if you do find yourself on the ground, I would advise being very focused on getting up as quickly as possible. BJJ will focus on finishing it on the ground, and, yes, if you do end on the ground, the BJJ guy will certainly have an advantage, but I do not recommend it as a sought after range. It is just far too dangerous.

I got what you are saying about the adrenalin, I am wondering if the above combination could still bring me as close to my goal of street defense.

What will get you prepared for the effects of adrenaline is experiencing adrenaline training. That is where the RBSD tapes will come in, as they will give you a number of drills which are disigned to do just that.

Gross motor actions is where it is at...except for the fact that it gets taken to the ground an awful lot here in my experience.

See above.

But to add to that, on the ground is no different, you should be looking to gross motor responces here too. Instead of looking for a complicated choke or lock, pin one of their arms out of the way (preferably in a way that jams the other as well) and hit to an open target (like the floating ribs) until you get the opportunity to get out, get up, and escape.

I have much to think about. Conditioning and the ground game are important to me as well.

For conditioning, join a gym. A decent personal trainer will help, or if you are nice and masochistic, look to groups like CrossFit. They will work you like you won't believe, but you will also get conditioning second to none. Other than that, for home, I really like kettlebells. Fun, don't take much time or room, and not too expensive either.

Any closing arguments loool? (When you are ready of course)

Arguments? Don't think I've had any yet... just opinions, really. Final points would be to stay aware of your goals, and keep an honest and critical eye on what you are doing. If you are doing nothing but jumping, spinning, double inside crescent kicks with a half-pike, then you may want to look at why that has become important to you and if you genuinely feel (using your common sense, the least used of all human senses it sometimes seems...) that what you are doing is truly benefiting you from a street self defence standpoint.

Thanks

My pleasure, but it's nearly 4am now, so I'm going to go for now. Enjoy your journey.

 

[ukiltmybrutha]

Okay, just before I head off...



My pleasure, but it's nearly 4am now, so I'm going to go for now. Enjoy your journey.

Go!!!!! I am reading this now....but GO GET SOME REST MAN! Wonderful knowledge that you have!

Thanks for sharing! I'll respond later so that you get some REST.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Xue Sheng,

From the description given, I get the feeling that the actual classes are in Hapkido and Yudo (Korean Judo), rather than Judo itself. While that is a small distinction, I would suggest that the grappling side of the Hapkido portion of the curriculum will focus on the joint locks from Daito Ryu, and the bulk of the throws will come from the Yudo section. There will be cross-over, but I think it'll probably be alright if the instructor blends them well enough. It'll almost become like one art (which will help in learning it).