BBB for the martial arts.

[miguksaram]

For the past couple of months, I have been involved in a situation where a self proclaimed "grandmaster" has been not only selling false dan certificates from KHF and KTA, but has also slandered many good martial artists as well as threaten them. I am glad to say that this man has since been getting busted for many things he has lied about. The sad part is that we have yet been able to bring any criminal charges or lawsuits against him. This situation would make a great case for the government to justify regulation in the MA industry, and it is very obvious that many of us do not want that type of intervention.

This whole incident had me thinking about forming an organization that would act similar to the Better Business Beurea. Here is the basic concept: For martial art schools who would be members, we would verify their ranks, organizational ties and claims. That way when a consumer sees our "label" on their advertisement, they would know that the school claims were legitimate and not some fly by night operator. Our job would only be to report facts on a school, not opinoins. So if John's TKD claims to be 5th dan in KKW, then we will verify it. Now if John's TKD is a belt factory that is not our concern as we can not control someone's business.

This concept will be a huge undertaking. My good friend and I have already talked about some of the preliminaries just to start this thing and it would be massive. So before we decide to take this further, I am wanting to get some feed back from others if they feel this would help the martial arts industry and as some of you are school owners, I would like to know if you think you would be interested in participating in such a program? Any feedback would be welcome here or PM me at [email protected]. Thanks.

With respect,

Jeremy

 

[jkn75]

This is a great idea. But a caution and some questions. Just one caution..This is what the Kidohae was created to do. Then it started issuing its own certificates. Now there is a World Kidohae and a Korean Kidohae.

What if you can't certify someone's background? For example: some of the Korean Grandmasters (See this thread.) or are you not going back that far? Are you just going to the organizational level?

What about the organization? Are you going to certify organizations, too?

What type of fees are you looking to charge?

Good luck. If you can create such an organization and have that organization get such a strong reputation, that martial artists will seek out businesses with your stamp, then the face of martial arts will change for the better.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Here is another concept...

Try posting your advertizement in the correct forum, and not in multiple forums.

Also...my personal opinion is that this could be just as much of a scam as any organization that "verifies rank" that I have seen.

And as I expect, there will be fee's involved in registering with this BBB type of an organization. The problem is, the value isn't there. People know what the BBB is...people (as in the general public) won't know your organization. So the problem will still exist that they won't know the difference between mcdojo down the street and the real deal without extensive research.

So...you may have noble intentions, and for that, I apoligize for sounding cynical. However, although the idea may be good in concept, I do not think it will work.

PAUL

 

[Tapps]

Sounds like a great idea.

I think it would be a HUGE task though.

 

[miguksaram]

First off I posted this in multiple forums because not everyone reads every forum. Since I am aiming for this to be used in all systems, I needed to get the information out to all the forums. Just a simple base covering.

Secondly, I understand teh sentiment of this being another scam organization. There have been so many that lately it is hard to know who to trust. Please keep the following in mind. This org will not conduct an promotion board, we will not promote one org over another. The intent is supposed to be a type of watch dog group for the martial arts world acting similar to that of the BBB. There would be fees involved for participating schools to help offset the cost of running this thing. However, I was given a suggestion of applying for a grant for this project and have the grant offset the costs in which case it would not cost anyone anything (well the taxpayers).

Lastly, this is all in the planning stage so I wish I had all the answers to everything but I do not. I have been given many objections ans suggestions from another list which has prompted many questions in my mind about how to construct this project. Yes my intentions are nobel in that I have spent 23 years of my life in the arts and have grown tired of seeing many people abuse them for their own financial gain. I am not saying this idea is foolproof. I am hoping that it will at least provide a first line of defense in helping the consumer stay clear of a McDojo.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes I believe it will too. That is why I am throwing this out to everyone now to see if it would be worth the time and effort in pursuing such a crazy idea. So hit me with everything you got so I don't screw this up.

 

[miguksaram]

Thank you. I understand that the Kidohae was created for such a thing but they seem to only specialize in Korean arts. This would be available for all arts. There are many factors that I have to look into.

As far as prices I am looking only enough money to keep it rolling, this is by far not my million dollar idea. ha.ha.ha.ha.ha I was given the suggestion of applying for a grant to help offset the costs. If I can do this, then I will not be charging anyone for this service.

I would like to venture into verifying legit orgs as well, but I am not sure how I can do that yet. Again, this is in it conceptual stage so any suggestions or objections are quite welcomed. Thanks.

 

[MisterMike]

Well, if I claim to be the Soke of my own system, would I be legitimate, as long as I am tellingth truth, even if my techniques are total garbage?

If not, who validates quality, and how?

 

[miguksaram]

For people who just started their own systems, we would only be able to verify your ranks from whatever system you studied prior to forming your own. In other words, we would not accept just a claim of I am submitting my school of my style that I founded. We would need your background in the arts, your ranks in the arts, etc. So in essence we would say you are a verified as holding a 6th dan in Shorei-ryu, 4th dan in Judo, etc. We will not allow people to just come up and say I am a soke of Takeyourdo and expect us to say ok you're legit.

 

[Jay Bell]

hehe...

A few buddies of mine and I are in the process of a similar project. Giving fraud the limelight that they so desperately desire...just not the way they wished

 

[Disco]

The biggest thing you have to take into account is the fact of litigations. You would have to have a way to investigate schools/Instructors all over the country. You just couldn't put sombodies name on the out list without real proof. As already pointed out, a "legit" Instructor can still be a crook for many years and nobody would know it until one day the toilet backs up. As what's just happened. I just think there is no real feasible way to make or allow this to happen. I applaud you for your desire and dedication to the arts, to even contemplate such an undertaking.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by PAUL
Also...my personal opinion is that this could be just as much of a scam as any organization that "verifies rank" that I have seen.

I agree. The biggest problem you will have here is the question of "who watches the watchers?"

Another issue is getting legitmate martial artists to trust the organization. On the surface, such an organization will probably sound like just another rank mill.

 

[MisterMike]

So you would draw the line at what rank?

For instance, if I studied TKD for a year, Shotokan for a year, Judo for 6 months, TaiChi for a year and did some Yoga on the side.

Now I feel I have 3.5 to 4 years of experience. Plus I made up my own stuff over the past 5 years since I stopped officially "studying". I am a master at what I do, but hold no official rank.

This is how it had to be started at some point up the food chain. Someone had to be first. I think studying TKD for 10 years and THEN saying you have your own system would make less sense because you're just renaming TKD to whatever you want. But if I fully devised my own art andhave been practicingit for 10 years, who's to challenge me?

I guess I am opposed to any regulation. IF you claim to teach an art, then you are equal to a painting school. No one can say you'r enot legit. They can say your artwork sucks, but they cannot stop you from teaching. The people who come in to learn will make that decision.

If you have a big sign that says "Self Defense" it sounds more like there is a claim that when you have officially completed the course/ranking system, you should be able to defend yourself. This is bunk. Because there are no scales/rulers to say, you should now be able to defend yourself agains 50% more people than when you entered. It is immeasureable.

You may be better, but there is no quarantee that you wil defend yourself in every situation. So even a school with root sthat go back 800 years cannot guarantee anything more than Master Mike would.

Hehe..ok..my $.02

I see your point. I hate seeing people get ripped off because what they are learning may be wrong or not work for them as it would for someone else. There's just no guarantees though.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Administrative Note:

Cross-Posting Policy
Cross posting is allowed in a limited manner. The same or similar message my be posted in no more than 3 forums. If you feel that your post needs to reach the entire forum community, please contact an administrator and we will add a forum wide announcement, at our discretion, for you. Excessive cross posts will be removed.

See our Forum Rules for additional information.

The duplicate threads will be merged into this one.

:asian:

 

[miguksaram]

Originally posted by Zepp
On the surface, such an organization will probably sound like just another rank mill.

Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall..........


Back..

This is in no way shape or form going to be an organization that distributes any type of rank. We will not be proclaiming anyone a Soke or Grandmaster. I myself, have a mere 3rd dan as my highest rank. My point is that we will only be spitting out facts that we find. We will most likely be turning away some instructors who do not hold legitimate ranks, a good example would be the gentleman that I mentioned in my first post. He was claiming 8th dan in the KHF. When all was said and done he held only a 6th dan. If he was to apply for "seal of apporval" (for better use of a phrase) He would be rejected due to this false claim. Does that clear it up a bit. We are not an organization to distribute rank amongst anyone.

 

[Nightingale]

just report frauds to the regular Better Business Bureau.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Nightingale
just report frauds to the regular Better Business Bureau.

WOW! That's the smartest thing anyone has said all day!

 

[miguksaram]

"just report frauds to the regular Better Business Bureau. "

Yes as after the consumer has already lost money. My concept is in trying to help the consumer avoid going to a fraudulent instructor in the first place.

 

[Jay Bell]

**Footnote - The group of mine that is putting together the same sort of thing seems to be very different. We're basically uncovering fraudulent claims by martial art instructors with valid, verifiable sources. It will not be an opinion page per say.

 

[Nightingale]

1. a new martial artist is not going to know to go check with your organization. new martial artists tend to walk into the local school thinking "karate is karate, right?" They simply don't know that martial arts is something that ought to be researched.

2. people are more likely to call the BBB if they're curious about someone's business practices, because that is standard procedure for someone curious about someone's business practices. the BBB doesn't need to advertize because everyone knows what it is and what it does.

3. the marketing costs for your plan will be astronomical, because your target community isn't martial artists, its joe public who might someday take a martial arts class. reaching the general public generally involves television.

4. Legit instructors don't usually need to pay an organization to say that they are legit. Word of mouth travels. Reputations follow people. Why would they pay for a service they don't need?

5. You're opening yourself up to all kinds of legal trouble if you "legitimize" martial arts schools. If a student feels scammed, they can sue YOU, because you have provided a guarantee that the school is a good school.

6. It makes much more sense to blacklist bad businesses (like the BBB does) than to whitelist good businesses. There are simply too many good businesses to create a comprehensive whitelist. Much more cost effective to blacklist the bad ones... but if you do that, you can't collect money from the good ones.

We already have the BBB to report on bad business practices. If you've had a problem with a MA school, call the BBB and report it. If you're curious about your MA school, or a school you're considering, call the BBB and see what they have to say.