47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Is there such a thing as "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu"?
Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu
- Thread starter 47MartialMan
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Black Tiger Fist
Green Belt
It's hard to say ,who really knows what "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu" is?
I mean it's not like ppl stopped teaching after they left the temple ,but who's to know what it is today?
So many ppl have just chosen to take their knowledge to the grave with them ,than pass it on to someone.
It's something that's still going on today sifu/masters chosing not to share their knowledge.
jeff
I mean it's not like ppl stopped teaching after they left the temple ,but who's to know what it is today?
So many ppl have just chosen to take their knowledge to the grave with them ,than pass it on to someone.
It's something that's still going on today sifu/masters chosing not to share their knowledge.
jeff
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #4
Care to explain a little more?The Kai said:
The Kai
Master of Arts
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The performing group touring around with the orange robes on is merely a money maker. Look at what Mao thought of the martial arts, do you think he left the temple intact??
A little wushu, sparring and mix in some gimmicks Bam! here come the monks!!
A little wushu, sparring and mix in some gimmicks Bam! here come the monks!!
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #6
Shaolin Kung Fu was just one piece in a huge world of kung fu. So many people think of shaolin as the birthplace or creation place of kung fu and thats just simply not true. People assume the words "shaolin" are sinonimous with true kung fu, but again thats not neccessarily true either.
"Authentic Shaoiln Kung Fu" is simply kung fu practiced at shaolin temple or by shaolin monks, so yes it exists today. Is it anything special? No. Was it ever anything special? Not really.
JMHO,
7sm
"Authentic Shaoiln Kung Fu" is simply kung fu practiced at shaolin temple or by shaolin monks, so yes it exists today. Is it anything special? No. Was it ever anything special? Not really.
JMHO,
7sm
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #8
You are missing the key word-"Authentic"
MartialMan, your posts dont seem to be easily understood. Could you elaberate on what you mean? I didn't miss the word "Authentic". What makes something authentic?47MartialMan said:
Your going to have to provide much more response in your posts if you want others to be able to follow what your trying to say.
7sm
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #10
Authentic.-Proven beyond every doubt that they do it almost exactly the way it was intended. Not to say that some info was lost. The concept of Shaolin being built in a remote mountainous region and not charging for lessons in the past, seem to be the authentic way. Plus, Ch'an Buddhism, was its first or foremost goal-not to train people, esp commoners, martial arts, as a means of profiteering. How come such was not in the 1950's or earlier? Why weren't these monks known or escaped China's communist rule, like other martial art masters, and the Dali Lama, to spread and educate?
Something like a Bowie knife made with stainless steel. Or a WWII bombadier jacket being remade in the 21st century out of vinyl.
Now, do I say that these Shaolin Kung Fu practitoners aren't any good or lack skills? No
Do I say that such monks nowadays are not monks when they teach Buddhism first, than martial arts second? No
Do I say that a monk may have to prove that they have a direct lineage to Shaolin? Yes-but how?
Do I say something loses its integrity when profits are involved? No-but Shaolin was based upon Buddhist practices first. The idea nowadays is towards martial arts-first...to sell the namesake.
Do I say, that something is not as good, when remade? Depends on the subject/item.
Do I say, from excessive explotation, that something becomes over-rated or over-hyped? Yes.
Perhaps Kai and Black Tiger knew what I had meant?
Something like a Bowie knife made with stainless steel. Or a WWII bombadier jacket being remade in the 21st century out of vinyl.
Now, do I say that these Shaolin Kung Fu practitoners aren't any good or lack skills? No
Do I say that such monks nowadays are not monks when they teach Buddhism first, than martial arts second? No
Do I say that a monk may have to prove that they have a direct lineage to Shaolin? Yes-but how?
Do I say something loses its integrity when profits are involved? No-but Shaolin was based upon Buddhist practices first. The idea nowadays is towards martial arts-first...to sell the namesake.
Do I say, that something is not as good, when remade? Depends on the subject/item.
Do I say, from excessive explotation, that something becomes over-rated or over-hyped? Yes.
Perhaps Kai and Black Tiger knew what I had meant?
MartialMan, your making your own deffinition of "authentic" and thats not correct. Authentic isn't something almost the same, or almost like it was intended. Authentic shaolin kung fu would be kung fu practiced the same way it was in shaolin, with the same methods, techniques, etc. What I was trying to say is that if there was "authentic shaolin kung fu" out there, its still not what many people believe it is. I dont think shaolin kung fu even olden days of shaolin, is actually what so many people think it is. Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu would still be only as amazing as it was long ago, and I dont think it was that amazing even then.
7sm
7sm
I met up with a friend of mine this past weekend who studies Songshan Shaolin from one of the better known emigre's from Shaolin Temple. He did several sets for me. They were all short in length & compared to what I'm used to, cramped & forced.
What he did is not what you see on the "Wheel of Life" tours or on performance videos of Songshan Shaolin. What he did looked like it would hurt bad to get hit with it & it wasn't pretty.
What he showed me isn't what most people would consider ugly. To me that rang "truer" that what you see demonstrated for film & show. Authentic though... I have no way of proving or disproving it's authenticity.
What he did is not what you see on the "Wheel of Life" tours or on performance videos of Songshan Shaolin. What he did looked like it would hurt bad to get hit with it & it wasn't pretty.
What he showed me isn't what most people would consider ugly. To me that rang "truer" that what you see demonstrated for film & show. Authentic though... I have no way of proving or disproving it's authenticity.
Darksoul
Black Belt
-Let me reiterate the notion that the person is what makes kung-fu work, not the style itself. And I don't think authenticity is as important as effectiveness. It would be nice to discern where each style came from, to flesh out the lineages to their roots in history, but for the most part, that isn't possible. Real Shaolin Kung-Fu? We have all heard the stories, watched movies, and perhaps have seen people do amazing things. Once again, was it the style, or the martial artist? You'll know good martial arts by effectiveness, which can only be expressed by the artist, not the name, or even the lineage. Things change over time. Martial arts have evolved because life has changed, meeting different needs. Though what I wouldn't give for a crystal ball;-)
A---)
A---)
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #14
What I was trying to say is that if there was "authentic shaolin kung fu" out there, its still not what many people believe it is. I dont think shaolin kung fu even olden days of shaolin, is actually what so many people think it is. Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu would still be only as amazing as it was long ago, and I dont think it was that amazing even then.
Something like this is what I meant.
You'll know good martial arts by effectiveness, which can only be expressed by the artist, not the name, or even the lineage. Things change over time. Martial arts have evolved because life has changed, meeting different needs.
The above-close to my sentiments. I had too, posted that the martial arts change per era (per ex-TMA vs. MMA).
Everyone that states that they teach or learn "Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu", I find disturbing. Even those that state they teach or learn Shaolin Kung Fu, are curtailing on the name for namesake. Something to be recognized or gained.
Now if this is the case with other systems, per stating that they have a lineage to Shaolin, then for that matter, many other Asian arts, if one is to study the ancient civiliization of Asian man, would see that some of theirs had come from other sources like India, for example. Including Shaolin. And those others, in the surrounding provinces, can state a lineage to Shaolin.
So, let it be noted, that I do not intend to bash or discredit any school, or anyone, I think that the term and usage gets way out of proportion.IMHO
Something like this is what I meant.
You'll know good martial arts by effectiveness, which can only be expressed by the artist, not the name, or even the lineage. Things change over time. Martial arts have evolved because life has changed, meeting different needs.
The above-close to my sentiments. I had too, posted that the martial arts change per era (per ex-TMA vs. MMA).
Everyone that states that they teach or learn "Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu", I find disturbing. Even those that state they teach or learn Shaolin Kung Fu, are curtailing on the name for namesake. Something to be recognized or gained.
Now if this is the case with other systems, per stating that they have a lineage to Shaolin, then for that matter, many other Asian arts, if one is to study the ancient civiliization of Asian man, would see that some of theirs had come from other sources like India, for example. Including Shaolin. And those others, in the surrounding provinces, can state a lineage to Shaolin.
So, let it be noted, that I do not intend to bash or discredit any school, or anyone, I think that the term and usage gets way out of proportion.IMHO
T
TonyM.
Guest
They are not only shameless exploitation and degredation of Gong Fu and Buddism, they are an international spy network at the call and becon of the PRC.
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47MartialMan
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #16
Hmmn...have any other info/limks on this notion?TonyM. said:
P
pekho
Guest
The traveling Shaolin monk group came to my school in Indonesia. They did it out of respect. They seem to believe their own propaganda and think of themselves as the true inheritors of Shaolin. According to the people there at the time, their moves were good, if a little on the flashy side. The main criticism was the moves were monotone in flavor, with no changes in pacing or energy. I don't know if the monk's government handlers were spies, but the monks were certainly not. They were not allowed to fraternize in any way, and government handlers watched their every move. None of our guys were allowed to spar with them so its hard to tell if they really know anything. I think their purpose was to show the Chinese Diaspora that the Chinese government cares about "traditional" culture. It was pretty clear they were essentially a propaganda tour, but the poor kids ("monks") should not be blamed. They work hard and are watched all the time.
Josh
Josh
