Are you a good Uke?

[Drac]

One night in class one of the senior black belts was having trouble performing a technique on me..I finally realized that when I was grabbing him I was not doing it like some street punk, but rather like someone who spent 30 some years in the arts...So the next time I grabbed him I did so like a untrained person, no attention to stance and balance and he had no problems...Anyone have any similar experiences

 

[terryl965]

Every once in a while I get cought up in the moment and forget that I am the Uke and try to out do the opponet. I think it just comes down to reaction kicking in rather than common sense.

 

[Drac]

Every once in a while I get cought up in the moment and forget that I am the Uke and try to out do the opponet. I think it just comes down to reaction kicking in rather than common sense.

I hear ya..It takes a bit of concentration for me...

 

[terryl965]

I hear ya..It takes a bit of concentration for me...

Me too and I find my reaction over the year getting the better of me at times. I guess going over techs all these years really does pay off.

 

[Drac]

I guess going over techs all these years really does pay off.

Yes it does....

 

[stickarts]

I was an Uke many many times for Prof. Presas. He kept bouncing me around every seminar so I must have been ok.
Mainly it was about me trying to keep up and not getting (too) hurt!
There was only once that I had no clue what technique he was trying to do on me and I must have kept rolling the opposite way and it just didn't go well at all.
I learned a lot being an Uke but I admit I like being on the other end of it better.

 

[Sukerkin]

In my old empty-hand days, we didn't really have an overmuch emphasis on delineated roles for partner practice; not in the same way as a Japanese art does at least. When we did engage in partner drills then it was always assumed that the uke would be performing the attack to the best of his/her ability.

The idea of making an attack 'as if' by an untrained person was used sometimes but not as often as I think it should have been (I didn't think that way back then but I was much younger and hadn't understood much beyond the physical side of things).

In iai, being a sword art, partner forms are of course quite strongly 'scripted' and both swordsman involved in the scenario are assumed to be of at least equal skill.

The uchidachi and shidachi performing the kata are usually not of equal skill, so it is up to the uchidachi to control pace and vigour and prevent the shidachi from messing up in a dangerous way.

Thinking about the background to Drac's OP tho', I'm wondering if it might not be interesting to run through the tachi waza (partner forms) with an assumption of an attacker who is less skilled or maybe drunk or injured? That would require some thought as a number of techniques actually require the opponent to be 'good enough' to mislead - a neophyte would not be so susceptible to timing or distance deceptions.


For anyone interested in learning a little bit about the way sword arts approach partner practise, here're a couple of interesting articles relevant to this:

http://www.koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.html

http://ejmas.com/tin/2007tin/tinart_quinlan_0701.html

 

[MJS]

One night in class one of the senior black belts was having trouble performing a technique on me..I finally realized that when I was grabbing him I was not doing it like some street punk, but rather like someone who spent 30 some years in the arts...So the next time I grabbed him I did so like a untrained person, no attention to stance and balance and he had no problems...Anyone have any similar experiences

Usually when I'm teaching a technique or even going over one myself for the first time, I like to do it in the 'ideal phase' where everything is just right and the technique can be executed with ease. Once this has been done, now I like to take it to the 'what if' phase, where things happen, such as you describe above. "What If" the person grabs this way? We probably can't do the tech. in the textbook fashion, but with some modifications to whats presented at the time, it can be done.

 

[theletch1]

In Nihon Goshin Aikido we have two phases of working a technique. All of it is done "partner" style but we learn the basics in what we call "classic" and work the technique against various attacks in "application". The classic is very kata-like. Uke is to give only the resistance that nage needs to learn the basic movements and energy flow of the technique. Classics are done from a static position with uke gripping nage in some way. Application is done from various attacks. Roundhouses, uppercuts, backhands, over hands, chops, you name the attack and we'll work off of it. To be a good uke though, you must throw your attack dynamically correct as if you were (as Drac stated) an untrained street thug. You don't have to throw full speed or full power but you should carry through with your punch as if you had, indeed, thrown full speed. Once nage has begun the defense it is ukes responsibility to move only if nage makes them move and to look for openings in the technique that could be exploited by an attacker (at least at the higher ranks). Being a good uke in both classic and application for me is simply behaving in such a way that will allow nage to learn the technique to the best of their ability. Am I, personally, a good uke? I certainly try. However, there are a few injuries from my past that I have to deal with that disallow me from being a great uke on some techniques. I still give it 100% and I guess that's all I can ask of myself.

 

[Jenna]

I think it is imperative to be the best uke you can. I do not think it is right that only nage should be learning from each repetition of technique, but rather uke should be an equal participant in the process. I believe uke is an underrated role.

In this case (OP) I think it is a good point that there are many, many different ways to be uke for the same technique. Each one will not only assist nage in filling his execution with as much goodness as possible, but will give you a much more encompassing feel for the kind of incoming attacks that are possible.. sorry, too verbose I know..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[MBuzzy]

I really think that the biggest mistake or disservice that an Uke can make is being too wrapped up in the "realism" aspect. It is important to give resistance and train for reality....but when someone is first learning a technique, it is more important to be a bit pliable and allow the person to work the technique and learn it. Once the movement is down, there will be plenty of time for resistance training.

Another mistake that I've run into many times is the Uke not communicating. It is extremely important just to say little things like "ok, that's not working" "Maybe rotate a bit to the right" "Now you have it," etc.

 

[Sukerkin]

Not at all verbose, good lady. A very well made point.

In iai, it is often the case that at the beginning uchidachi (uke) has to take things very slow and easy with shidachi, otherwise bad things happen.

But as the students skill increases then so does the necessity for full application of zanshin (awareness), seme (pressure or prescence), metsuke (direction and distance of vision). These are all non-physical attributes that, with other elements, are at the heart of iai and without them it's just dancing about with a sword rather than the koryu martial art it really is.

That was a rather long winded way of saying "Me too!" wasn't it :lol:?

 

[Jenna]

I really think that the biggest mistake or disservice that an Uke can make is being too wrapped up in the "realism" aspect. It is important to give resistance and train for reality....but when someone is first learning a technique, it is more important to be a bit pliable and allow the person to work the technique and learn it. Once the movement is down, there will be plenty of time for resistance training.

Hey MBuzzy that is a good point, well stated, and I agree. But do you not think yourself that adequate resistance can actually assist the beginner in "feeling" the technique? In the manner of "I will not move until you move me" ?? I do not think that uke should berate himself for this. And but perhaps that is an Aikido thing. Aikido is frequently fraught with issues of hyper-compliant ukes..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Sukerkin]

Jenna, I think what Craig was saying was more about right at the very start of the learning process where a student is just trying to get the sequence of events settled down more than anything else.

After that then realistic resistance certainly becomes a help.

For example, one of my fellow iaidoka's is a slender young lady and one of the techniques in tachi uchi requires the shidachi to grasp the uchi dachi's swordarm wrist. The intention is to twist the katana edge down and also destroy the uchidachi's posture by pulling their centre down and to the right. My partner's hands were too small and delicate to take an effective hold of my wrist. I could've just gone 'with it' but she would not have been learning how to effectively apply the technique.

Through my resistance and a bit of trial and error experimentation we found that if she came in and made use of her sandan karate skills, she could use a knife-hand to the inside of my wrist to get my posture breaking and then turning the wrist did not require her to have a full grip.

It is something that we sometimes have to remind ourselves of in martial arts - not everyone can do everything the 'official' way. If it's down to a physical limitation then you have to find a way around it that gives the same conclusion.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

A good Uke should provide some resistance to Nage so Nage can see that it is technique. Being a good Uke helps show what Nage may be doing wrong from not the right set up, to not disbalancing to improper grip etc.
This helps beginners understand the technique and not try to rely on pure strength.

 

[MA-Caver]

I've had been a uke for several people who wanted to practice at home their forms and techniques. While I understand completely that these forms and techniques are designed to work this and that way, but again my own problems (like Drac & Terry) are my own ingrained insistence at keeping it real. Non TKD'ers or non-EPAKs or non-any art aren't always going to react and do what the technique calls for. I've belted people and they go sprawling, I've belted people and they just stand there and grin (and I go aww ****!), grabbed someone's arm and prepare to roll them off my shoulder (talking real fights here) and they resist and go the opposite direction and end up all over me.
If a MA-ist trains and trains and trains doing techniques with their ukes reacting this predictable way... it could be more of a hindrance than an asset out on the streets where these techniques are supposed to be utilized should a situation of SD arise.
Probably this is what Bruce Lee was struggling with as he developed JKD. His own street-fighting experience in his early years must've taught him that not everyone is going to have the physical reaction to a kick/blow that they're "supposed" to have. He realized that adaptability and using different techniques will help win the fight, but he also realized that not all WC techs are suited thus his break-away and learning different "styles" which of course lead him to realize that "styles" can be a hindrance.
A good uke for the purpose of training and learning that specific technique/form is important. Because it helps pass the belt test and helps the practitioner become a better MA-ist in that particular art.
I think a good uke knows also how to change up or not react in the predictable manner so that the practitioner can become a better MA-ist out on the streets should they ever need to use it.

respectfully :asian:

 

[MBuzzy]

I definately don't mean to derail the thread on this discussion again, but basically my point about resistance is....I am strong enough that I may be able keep someone from performing a technique, unless it is executed perfectly. But many times when you are FIRST learning a technique, the first thing you must learn is the motion....where are you going, where are you moving your Uke? An experienced pratitioner may be able to get it. But there are even times what I'll tell my Uke to just relax and let me do it so that I can learn the motion - where I don't WANT resistance yet....just to learn the motion, then work the lock and proper application.

That definately doesn't discount the NEED for resistance and the NEED for learning things under more real circumstances. But as the Uke, you must understand where your partner is in their training and what they need to learn the technique.

 

[MA-Caver]

I definately don't mean to derail the thread on this discussion again, but basically my point about resistance is....I am strong enough that I may be able keep someone from performing a technique, unless it is executed perfectly.

Heh, yeah but everytime I did that I got "yelled at" :wink1:

 

[jks9199]

A good uke or training partner offers appropriate resistance to tori, in a reasonably realistic fashion. It does no good to do things at unrealistic or inappropriate ranges; that principle doesn't change. Similarly, tori and uke should be working at corresponding paces. I can't go full speed against my partner's half-speed. When first learning a technique, resistance (which includes using techniques that innately negate the technique, like ways to hold/grab, or deceptive set ups for strikes) should be minimal. As the tori develops familiarity with the technique, the resistance should change and increase and become less predictable.

Another important thing for uke when assisting the instructor in a demonstration is to throw the requested technique with commitment. I've got a student that I'm getting very close to clocking. He's a senior student, and I often use him to demonstrate -- but he's so concerned now with showing how he can pull away or do different things that he doesn't throw the technique properly. Recently I had to basically threaten him: "do the technique properly so I can show it -- or I'll show it for real on you!" The strike has to come in range, the body must be behind the strike and so on... otherwise, often the iinstructor cannot demonstrate the point they're after.

 

[morph4me]

One night in class one of the senior black belts was having trouble performing a technique on me..I finally realized that when I was grabbing him I was not doing it like some street punk, but rather like someone who spent 30 some years in the arts...So the next time I grabbed him I did so like a untrained person, no attention to stance and balance and he had no problems...Anyone have any similar experiences

I have, and I've had to use the same thought process to attack like an untrained attacker. I suspect that the reason he was having a problem performing the technique on you is because you were working on a particular technique and not just flowing with an attack.

Usually when I'm teaching a technique or even going over one myself for the first time, I like to do it in the 'ideal phase' where everything is just right and the technique can be executed with ease. Once this has been done, now I like to take it to the 'what if' phase, where things happen, such as you describe above. "What If" the person grabs this way? We probably can't do the tech. in the textbook fashion, but with some modifications to whats presented at the time, it can be done.

Absolutely, once I or my students learn the technique, we can take it to the next level and add resistance or the what if scenario's and what we have to do to make the technique work.

I definately don't mean to derail the thread on this discussion again, but basically my point about resistance is....I am strong enough that I may be able keep someone from performing a technique, unless it is executed perfectly. But many times when you are FIRST learning a technique, the first thing you must learn is the motion....where are you going, where are you moving your Uke? An experienced pratitioner may be able to get it. But there are even times what I'll tell my Uke to just relax and let me do it so that I can learn the motion - where I don't WANT resistance yet....just to learn the motion, then work the lock and proper application.

That definately doesn't discount the NEED for resistance and the NEED for learning things under more real circumstances. But as the Uke, you must understand where your partner is in their training and what they need to learn the technique.

I don't think you're derailing the thread, I think you're right on point, when a person is first learning a technique too much resistance can be a hinderance. I think what Drac is saying is that being a good uke when working on a technique requires that you give your partner the appropriate energy so he can do the technique, at that point you can provide feedback or he can self correct, if he's at an advanced level.

What we, as martial artists, do after years of training is resist unconsciously by using proper balance and body mechanics. We don't attack the way an untrained attacker would, so we aren't good uke's when training a particular technique. This wouldn't be a problem if it were a training drill involving self defense or resistance training, but when we're training a particular technique it becomes an issue.