Age-Uke

glad2bhere

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Dear Folks:

Though a practitioner of Korean MA I have been involved in research into the Okinawan kata. Regarding the BASSAI DAI kata of the Shotokan tradition does anyone have a decent reason for why the Double Inside-Outside blocks of the first four combinations were substituted for the use of the Upper Block ("Age Uke")/ Jaw Thrust ("Age Tsuki") combination. I note that this is done throughout the kata and its practice then proceeds into the Tang Soo Do use of these kata following the Shotokan rather than the Okinawan tradition. In like manner the stances and execution of the techniques of the Shotokan/TSD traditions are much larger than are the contained execution of the Okinawan traditions. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
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Josephk

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i'm not sure if this answers your question, but i do shotokan and goju ryu karate, and although i haven't learned bassai dai yet, i think that shotokan has gone more towards a competitive way of training rather than one with good application. so maybe the change in the techniques you mention is because it looks better or something. i'm not sure though.
 
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glad2bhere

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Thanks for the thoughts.

Even when I study the Shotokan execution (or by extension the TSD) I find that the motions are larger, often extending past the limits of ones' own sillouette. Okinawan performance is always so tight and economical. Reading some of the old DRAGON TIMES issues I heard that many folks who studied Karate after WW II made trips back to Okinawa in an effort to recapture the more "combat oriented" execution. I also noticed that the Shotokan Naifanchi form (Tekki 1-2-3) still uses the agetsuki so I am guessing that the technique, in and of itself, could not have fallen into complete disrepute. How does your teacher explain this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

kenmpoka

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glad2bhere said:
Dear Folks:

Though a practitioner of Korean MA I have been involved in research into the Okinawan kata. Regarding the BASSAI DAI kata of the Shotokan tradition does anyone have a decent reason for why the Double Inside-Outside blocks of the first four combinations were substituted for the use of the Upper Block ("Age Uke")/ Jaw Thrust ("Age Tsuki") combination. I note that this is done throughout the kata and its practice then proceeds into the Tang Soo Do use of these kata following the Shotokan rather than the Okinawan tradition. In like manner the stances and execution of the techniques of the Shotokan/TSD traditions are much larger than are the contained execution of the Okinawan traditions. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Mr. Sims,

The Shotokan's "Bassai Dai" And "Bassai Sho" are based on the teachings and adaptations of Ankoh Itosu and Gichin Funakoshi. The other version you are reffering to is based on the teachings of Matsumura, properly known as "Matsumura Patsai". There are many variations of Okinawan Kata based on various teachings and lineage. There are many versions of Patsai, Pasai, Bassai, Bassai Dai-Sho and it has nothing to do with the competative nature of any system but with application (bunkai)....

Good luck in your research,

Respectfully,
 
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OC Kid

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When the karate went to Japan to teach at the Butokukai the masters exchanged ideas and katas but to keep each system different from each other they slightly changed the moves to adapt to their philosophy. Then the systems started breaking up inot smaller sub systems the instructors changed the kata a little bit more to diferential between the styles.

Shotokan hasnt gone throught the changes that the other systems have to my knowledge. So theres are the closest to the original kata as taught by Funikoshi (sp) .
Okinawan kata are more like the Chinese MA more fluid and flowing....

I hope this helps answer your question
 
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glad2bhere

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Many thanks for your responses. Seems as though I may not be going back far enough, then. Reading John Sells book, I get the impression that Matsumura Sokon adjusted what he taught to the individual to whom he taught. Of particular note was the comment made about how Kyan and Itosu recieved alternate versions of the same form. In case you are wondering what this proceeds from, there are Korean revisionists who would like people to think that such usage of the Pyong Ahn hyung (AKA Pinan kata) actually pre-dates the material that was imported to Korea from Japan. I think you will recognize this as the typical "we-had-it-first" style of nationalism. The premise is that Korean Soo-Bahk was transmitted to Okinawa (and Japan) during the 14th century as the Ming began to expand their influence towards their "younger brothers" (Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Annan, etc.) and various countries began to ply the waterways along the Chinese coast. Needless to say this is wholly inaccurate since, were that true, the Korean arts would reflect an older rendition of the Okinawan kata AND would have pre-dated such modern kata as the Pinan.

OK, so where is this going?

The Korean martial traditions relate to the Chinese traditions through the MYTBTJ (1795). Easily half of this work relates to Gen Qi's training material as published in his manual "JIN XIAO SHIN SHU" (1567). The Boxing chapter of that book was written while he was still training his cadre in Southern China against the Wa-Ko and while it cites drawing on 16 varieties of Boxing techniques 29 of 32 techniques come from Taizu Long Fist. As you know what most people practice today is hell&gone from the original Emperor Taizus' art. However,

1.) The art itself was hugely popular throughout China and

2.) Remenants of the Boxing style still show up here and there (to wit: Chen TCC).

In the 14th cent. the Ming sent what is called the 36 Families to Okinawa. There is some thought that what was later called "To-De", which combined with such 18th century material as Ku Shan Kus' boxing to produce "Okinawa-te", may reflect bits of whatever the 36 Families may have brought to Kune. So this is the reason I am fascinated with Okinawan traditions. Perhaps it is possible to get a peek at the traditions of early (pre-Fukien) boxing if one casts a discerning eye over some of what was taught in early free forms (IE. Chinto, Kushanku).By extension may this would provide insights into the MYTBTJ material in the KWON BUP ("Boxing method") chapter. Now to be real honest I have yet to find ANY resources that guarentee that the 36 Families brought Boxing techniques to Okinawa, let alone to which of three kingdoms and what those techniques might have been. I am also given to believe that the art (and culture) that survives on Kune relates only to the 36 Families in the minds of irrepressible romantics, but I am open to anything anyone has to offer. Here ends my long story. :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
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OC Kid

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I dont know where your going to find them but look at some korean martial arts books that were written before 1960. you'll find amazing simularities to KMAs and JMAs. They "unified" the system TKD around the early-middle 1960s. Just some info
 
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glad2bhere

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Many Thanks.

So far the biggest hurdle I have had to deal with is in the organization of material. By this I mean that when Gen Qi taught his men, he gave a method a colorful name. The method may have been one or two or three techniques depending on what he wanted them to learn. For instance, "golden rooster stands on one leg" often looks a lot like the Okinawan "Crane stance". However the method that comes by that "Rooster" title is actually a few movements of which the most noteworthy posture is the one-legged stance.

By comparison the Okinawans seem to have tended to chain things together under an overall purpose. For instance, the old Patsai kata operates under the idea of "storm the fortress" and is performed with the intent of learning how to move from a position of disadvantage to advantage.

If I had to make an analogy I would say my efforts are something like comparing two strings of pebbles and trying to identify where the two separate strings have pebble series which seem to look the same in size, color and order. Oh well, Everybody needs a hobby, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

Chizikunbo

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glad2bhere said:
Dear Folks:

Though a practitioner of Korean MA I have been involved in research into the Okinawan kata. Regarding the BASSAI DAI kata of the Shotokan tradition does anyone have a decent reason for why the Double Inside-Outside blocks of the first four combinations were substituted for the use of the Upper Block ("Age Uke")/ Jaw Thrust ("Age Tsuki") combination. I note that this is done throughout the kata and its practice then proceeds into the Tang Soo Do use of these kata following the Shotokan rather than the Okinawan tradition. In like manner the stances and execution of the techniques of the Shotokan/TSD traditions are much larger than are the contained execution of the Okinawan traditions. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Because Funakoshi thought it was too dangerous to be used, he removed alot of things, just like all of the Bunkai.
If you would like to see the most original version of the Passai kata I have seen go to this url http://karate.dhs.org/katanote.htm
 

TimoS

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Chizikunbo said:
If you would like to see the most original version of the Passai kata I have seen go to this url http://karate.dhs.org/katanote.htm

Interesting to see Bassai done differently than what I've learned :) But just curious, how do you know that this version is closest to the original ? There are, after all, several versions of Bassai and none of us was around when they were created.
 
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glad2bhere

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Dear Josh and Timo:

I hope you both know how much I really appreciate this sort of exchange. I will probably contact the website itself and make arrangements for the CD-s "at a nominal price".

I would echo your comment Timo except that my experience has been that different versions arise not so much from any special technical advantage but rather from the priorities of the teachers who decided one approach was more worthy than another. As things stand I am looking for some older biomechanics and can say with some authority, for instance, that Funakoshis' approach is significantly different than the Okinawan antecedents from which he drew. In such a case it is worthwhile for the purposes of my work to drop things from Shodokan forward such as TSD and Wado-Ryu for instance and back up to arts which are closer to their Chinese Boxing precursors (for instance Uechi-ryu/Pangainoon and its relationship with Tiger, Crane and Dragon Boxing of Fukien). The key is not so much the interpretation in such cases as much as finding the "ol timey" way things were done. To use an analogy, if I wanted milk I would run down to the store and buy a bottle of milk. What I am seeking to do is find out how folks use to milk the cow in the old days. Hope this makes sense.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

TimoS

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glad2bhere said:
I would echo your comment Timo except that my experience has been that different versions arise not so much from any special technical advantage but rather from the priorities of the teachers who decided one approach was more worthy than another.

Well said, wish I could come up with things like that :) Oh well, maybe when I have trained more...

One thing that I just remembered now is that sensei always tells us that kata has to be alive, so it isn't exactly the same every time you do it, so it also understandable that gradually it changes and therefore if a teacher has students at different times, they are likely to see kata that looks different on the outside but still is the same kata inside.

What I am seeking to do is find out how folks use to milk the cow in the old days. Hope this makes sense.

Makes perfect sense
 
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cas

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Hi All,

Interesting discussion. Have you taken into account that different lineages may have had no teachers in common? I think the influence of Uechi-ryu on TSD can't be very big.
From what I've read shotokan has changed alot after Funakoshi and Funakoshi changed from Itosu. Perhaps studying all Itosu derived Bassai versions will give you good ideas.

just my 0.02 euro

Casper
 
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glad2bhere

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Thanks, Casper. Of course you are right that there are probably not any direct connections between an art like Uechi-ryu and TSD. Where my research might go in such a case would be something like the following.

In Uechi-ryu the SEISAN kata uses a single-legged stance with high/low blocking hands to the front. A common TSD posture found in many hyung is likewise a one-legged stance with high/low blocking hands albeit to the side. Though there is no direct connection of Uechi-ryu to TSD that I know of, the incorporation of the same biomechanics in both arts suggests that across time this boxing method was seen as having acceptable (significant?) merit such that it continues to be used. Now, just to make sure I am being understood let me give you a "negative" example.

TSD. TKD and to some degree the art of Hapkido which I practice has used high kicks and high spinning kicks as significant parts of their respective curriculums. There are even modern hyung that incoporate these same moves. However, if one goes back to Japanese Karate, then Okinawan TE, and then back to Chinese Boxing either North OR South there is a steady loss of such techniques. For instance, a well-regarded form such as TAN TUI does not have any high kicks save for the occasional Jump-front-snap kick and has no spinning kicks except for the low spinning sweep kick. I'm not saying such techniques might not have existed for someone like Gen Qi, only that he may have looked at those techniques and relegated them to what he called "flowery boxing" and considered them un-worthy of regard for use on a standard battlefield of the time. Does this help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
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hippy

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reffering back to the original thread from "glad2bhere"
i have learnt the wado version of bassai dai + bassai sho, neither of which has an age uke/zuki combo in the first few moves.

i have also learnt the shotokan version of bassai sho which does have a move similar to haisho uke (right hand) with left arm guarding high up on the temple, then proceeding to turn around 180,swapping hands and the left arm lowering for a grab, as if u were grabbing from underneth a bo attack to the head.
but again, no age uki/zuki combo.

i have also been attending various kata tournaments in uk, and have not seen this version of bassai kata, although i do remember, a few years back i did find a list of supposedly all shotokan katas. now this site did list 10 versions of bassai katas, i forgot the address (damn playstation for ruining my memory and attention span!) it may be that u had seen one of these other variants, which was simply named correctly/incorrectly.
 
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Ippon Ken

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I practice Matsumura Shuri Te (Shorin). What is it you want to know? What "rising block" is there in Paisai/Passai/Patsai Sho or Dai? It is the same in the Kobayashi Ryu (an Itosu-ha) version. In Sho there is a quick crossing step at the beginning that ends in a hidden foot stance and an uppercut/entrance to a shoulder throw, and in the Dai version there is a reinforced closed fist x-block/strike after the cross-step to hidden foot stance. This tech can also be interpreted as a cross-collar choke to a throw done after an unbalancing reinforced jaw or neck strike.


Funakoshi's karate had influences from Matsumura, Itosu and Asato. All taught him at one time or another. Although this was the case, he was not considered the best of the Okinawan students who learned from these guys. No doubt he injected some "Japanization" and "budofication" into an Okinawan Jutsu art. If you do the modern, non "Karate Jutsu" kata of Shotokan, you are getting a gist of what the original more functional forms were like, but an inkling is not enough to pass on the true bunkai and intentions of a form. You'll just be going throught the motions as so many aspects of the original form have been altered forever.

This applies to TSD as well, which is derivative of the sport/children's version of Okinawan karate (especially Shuri Te) called Shotokan. Funakoshi's forms, stances, strikes, kicks, omission of tuite (grappling) and kobudo/kobujutsu points to a "kinder, gentler" form of karate. So to learn the form as close to the origin as possible look for the Kobayashi Ryu or Matsumura Seito versions. Matsubayashi Ryu and Shobayashi Ryu aslo have more accurate representations of the original kata, than do styles like Wado, Kyokushinkai, Shito Ryo, Japanese Shorinji Ryu, Chito Ryu or Shotokan. Thats the straight-up facts. The Okinawan kata are closest to the form's "form" as teachers like Itosu, Kyan, Chibana and Soken taught them.

Look for the answers you seek in the right place. Don't ask a Russian linguist to teach you Mandarin Chinese. It don't make no sense.
 
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