Abu Ali

[Flatlander]

from CBS:

The feds say that the Houston-born Abu Ali plotted to assassinate President Bush and to join and aid al Qaeda. ...<Snip>...
If convicted of all six charges, Abu Ali would face a maximum of 80 years in prison -- a life sentence, in other words. ...<Snip>...
I just don't see an American judge allowing prosecutors to get to trial with a case that has even a scintilla of a suggestion that the defendant was tortured into confessing.

The point that sticks out for me here is that the bulk of the evidence (so far, anyways) seems to reside in his confession, procured under questionable circumstances.

As well, it seems as though the US government took an unreasonably long time in getting this man back home.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Anybody else read this story?

 

[Zepp]

Every year the Secret Service investigates dozens of threats against the president's life. I find it interesting that this one in particular has been singled out. Was this threat really more credible than all the rest? It's not like there's a shortage of people who want to kill Bush.

 

[kid]

those were bold words i dont even like to say them out loud or even in this forum big brother could hear. scary. lol!

 

[ginshun]

I heard his mother on the radio saying how e was tortured in the Saudi prison into giving the confession and that the story is totally bogus.

Who knows though, if I were plotting something like this, I don't think my mom whould be someone I would let it on the plan.

Personally I tend to trust the government most of the time and if they say they have enough on him, then I believe that they probably do. I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out though.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Personally I tend to trust the government most of the time ...

Why exactly is that? Our government certainly doesn't have a long track record of credibility, regardless of which political party happens to be in charge.

 

[ginshun]

Why exactly is that? Our government certainly doesn't have a long track record of credibility, regardless of which political party happens to be in charge.

I don't know, I just do. For my 30 years of life I can't think of any way that the government has wronged me. I think that our government as a whole lot less corrupt than most governments around the world. Is it perfect? obviously not, far from it in fact. Personally though, I don't think that law enforcement agenciest and the government are usually in the practice of just making stuff like this serious up for the heck of it.

You don't have to share my opinion, form your own.

 

[Karazenpo]

I don't know, I just do. For my 30 years of life I can't think of any way that the government has wronged me. I think that our government as a whole lot less corrupt than most governments around the world. Is it perfect? obviously not, far from it in fact. Personally though, I don't think that law enforcement agenciest and the government are usually in the practice of just making stuff like this serious up for the heck of it.

You don't have to share my opinion, form your own.

Agreed, Sir. Unfortunately there are those who live in this country who are constantly complaining and full of negativism, nothing the government does will ever please them. True, it's far from perfect but it's the best we got and by far the best in the world! My question is why do these malcontents stay? If they don't like it, leave, get out! No one is putting a gun to their heads making them stay here. Let them go somewhere else with that attitude and watch what happens...........if I may steal a line from 'The Godfather' they would be 'sleeping with the fishes'. It's funny how President Bush is now being treated much more differently in his current international visit then before and why? Simple. Victorious in three elections. Afganastan, Iraq and America, so now they've decided to listen. Remember when the United Nations and good old boy Kofi Annan was passing judgement on Bush and Company and then ,low and behold, 'The oil for food scandel', what is it up to now, 21 billion dollars and counting, Kofi involved, his son, my what a tangled web we weave. Old Kofi is pretty quiet these days. If he were George W. involved in a scandal like this, the malcontents in our country would be screaming for justice and his resignation. Funny, all is quiet about that too. Peachmonkey, I take it you're a female, at least I hope so with the handle Peachmonkey, if not you would have to be the baddest dude on this planet, lol. Okay, my point being, you're a woman why don't you talk to some of the Afganastan women who finally got to vote in a free election! Didn't they say that Afgan women made up something like 40 per cent of the vote? Gee, I wonder who was responsible for that? Could it have been George W. and the good old U.S.A.? Perhaps you would have liked it out there before. Walking 20 feet behind the male, being a second class citizen, having to cover up all the time, not allowed to vote or speak out against the males, gee, sounds like a great place to live for a lady, maybe America isn't all that bad, is it? Iraqi people walking miles and waiting in line to vote knowing they could have very well been in some insurgents rifle scope or suicide mission! Talk to them. Did you hear a bunch of Iraqi civillians captured four insurgents in their town and held them for U.S. and Iraqi troops to pick up and greeted the troops with cheers and applause. Go spread them your sentiments about the U.S.A.!
So much negativism............don't like it here go find someplace better! I dare you.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Once again, any criticism of the United States is ignored on its actual merits; instead, the response is a bunch of fascist "love-it-or-leave-it" vitriol.

Many of us who complain about the country do so *because* we love it, and because it pains us to see a nation founded on great ideals that has done, and can do, so many great things also commit great evils. It is not only our right, but our *duty* to make sure that the country treats its citizens, its neighbors, and the rest of the world as well as possible -- this is fundamental to the concepts of freedom and democracy that we claim to hold dear.

Yes, America is a great place to live. No, I'm in no hurry to leave. No, that doesn't mean I should sit tight and ignore the bad sides too. Such an attitude is childish at best, and exceedingly dangerous at worst.

The oil for food scandal you mention *is* being investigated, and pursued, by the United Nations and the United States and Iraq. UN officials have already been suspended, and investigations are proceeding against Annan and his son, among many others.

My gender is completely irrevelant to the discussion, particularly since you clearly have no idea how I feel about the invasion of Afghanistan -- a move I actually *supported*.

While it's usually easier to project opinions about what people think and what they should do than actually engage in a rational discussion, I would prefer to focus on how the nation I live in, with officials I vote for, whose policies I hold collective responsibility for, behaves, and whether that behavior is for good or ill.

 

[ginshun]

I would prefer to focus on what the nation I live in, with officials I vote for, whose policies I hold collective responsibility for, behaves, and whether that behavior is for good or ill.

Not a problem, what were we discussing again? Oh ya, personally I think that if they went thtough the trouble of arresting this guy, and it has been all over the media, they more than likely have enough evidence to get him convicted. I am sure that in the process, the way in which the evidence was collected will be under scrutiny.

I haven't looked into it enough to make a judgment on the guys guilt or innocence. But I am sure that a lot of people have and that a lot more will. I am willing to trust that whatever happens to him in the end will be the right thing.


Maybe in your mind my trust of the government is misguided, so be it.

 

[Karazenpo]

"Many of us who complain about the country do so *because* we love it, and because it pains us to see a nation founded on great ideals that has done, and can do, so many great things also commit great evils."

PeachMonkey, gimme a break, so according to your beliefs this moron Churchill loves this country? Really! Not anything, but if your beliefs were those of the majority of Americans in the past we'd be eating sushi for Japan and speaking German. Let me throw this at you. The two nuclear bombs dropped in Japan saved 500,000 to 1,000,000 American soldiers, yes, with a lot of collateral damage, unfortunate but that's war, now if you had a voice back then, don't tell me, you would have traded American soldiers lives for your extremist left wing beliefs and would have negated Truman's decision. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected and apologize. I truly hope I'm wrong on this one! I mean that.

 

[Blind]

"Many of us who complain about the country do so *because* we love it, and because it pains us to see a nation founded on great ideals that has done, and can do, so many great things also commit great evils."

PeachMonkey, gimme a break, so according to your beliefs this moron Churchill loves this country? Really! Not anything, but if your beliefs were those of the majority of Americans in the past we'd be eating sushi for Japan and speaking German. Let me throw this at you. The two nuclear bombs dropped in Japan saved 500,000 to 1,000,000 American soldiers, yes, with a lot of collateral damage, unfortunate but that's war, now if you had a voice back then, don't tell me, you would have traded American soldiers lives for your extremist left wing beliefs and would have negated Truman's decision. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected and apologize. I truly hope I'm wrong on this one! I mean that.

A bit off topic but I would point out that you can't just pull up a figure to say how many more would have died or where or who would have won. For the record though on the Japan front Japan was already beaten, whether or not the states had dropped the bombs. The reasons they chose those cities to bomb would have constituted a war crime, both cities had not been bombed up until that point in the war for a reason...it was a scientific experiment plain and simple. However I am open to the argument that doing so did prevent Russia from growing too big for its boots,which brings me to my next point. You can't say that the now "free" world would be speaking German unless you you are the Alpha and the Omega. A country is not so easily pushed down, if it was Iraq would already be over wouldn't it.

As for trading American lives how many have died in Iraq so far and for what purpose?? To bring freedom? Why do you care what another countries Govnt. is? To find terrorists? Making war is not the way to do it, otherwise you would have the American military bombing America to find the local ones(Oklahoma??). Weapons of mass destruction?? Saddam couldn't hit KUWAIT 10 years ago, who gave him the tools to hit America?? NO-ONE.This argument has been done to death.

Peachmonkey was right on the money, I wouldn't trust anything they have to say in regard to that area of the world. Committing crimes in general I would trust the agencies concerned to do the right thing. I don't have a clue about his guilt or innocence, but considering the way it is being portrayed it seems more like smokescreen. The president probably gets threats all the time and you don't even hear about it, why are we hearing about this? Maybe as good god fearing Americans you should be concerned for the life of your beloved leader?? I don't feel he is in anywhere near the type of danger he has sent more than 120 thousand people into, so if his actions are causing him stress, good.

 

[PeachMonkey]

PeachMonkey, gimme a break, so according to your beliefs this moron Churchill loves this country?

Actually, this thread isn't about Ward Churchill. I have no idea whether or not he loves America, regardless. I'm talking about myself, in reference to your fascist diatribe about "love it or leave it".

Really! Not anything, but if your beliefs were those of the majority of Americans in the past we'd be eating sushi for Japan and speaking German. Let me throw this at you. The two nuclear bombs dropped in Japan saved 500,000 to 1,000,000 American soldiers, yes, with a lot of collateral damage, unfortunate but that's war, now if you had a voice back then, don't tell me, you would have traded American soldiers lives for your extremist left wing beliefs and would have negated Truman's decision. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected and apologize. I truly hope I'm wrong on this one! I mean that.

Clearly you have no idea what my "extremist left-wing beliefs" are, since this is the second time you've incorrectly jumped to a conclusion about my positions. Not that it's even slightly relevant to the conversation, but I happen to think the use of atomic weaponry against Japan was the best choice at the time, in order to save both Allied and Japanese lives in an invasion.

Now, can we actually discuss the topics at hand rather than putting words in my mouth?

 

[Karazenpo]

"A bit off topic but I would point out that you can't just pull up a figure to say how many more would have died or where or who would have won."

Who pulled what from the air??? If you knew your history and followed World War 2 you would know that figure is not mine but the accepted approximated figure as to how many U.S. lives were saved by Truman's actions. So if you want to argue that, you'll have to take it to a higher power than me! Please don't lecture me during this era, my Dad was an Ex-Pow, wounded in action, bronze star and held captive in Nazi Germany for 11 months and suffered for people like you and PeachMonkey and that's the part that turns my stomach. These guys fought so you can support morons like Ward Churchill today. You guys don't even have a clue.

 

[Karazenpo]

Clearly you have no idea what my "extremist left-wing beliefs" are, since this is the second time you've incorrectly jumped to a conclusion about my positions. Not that it's even slightly relevant to the conversation, but I happen to think the use of atomic weaponry against Japan was the best choice at the time, in order to save both Allied and Japanese lives in an invasion.

Now, can we actually discuss the topics at hand rather than putting words in my mouth?


Well PeachMonkey, what do you expect, every other post from you screams fascist pig! I posed it as a question for that is what you lead me to believe and as long as you insist on your fascist pig statements then all is relevant because like I said, that reminds me of the hippies back in the 60's, oh, you weren't were you? ,lol, just teasing but c'ome on I was told once that you can never debate a liberal without being called a fascist pig, good advice I think! When they have no where to go in the debate that always comes up!

 

[PeachMonkey]

Karazenpo,

Honestly, are you going to address the topic of this thread, and the points that we've brought up, or just continue to lecture us about beliefs we supposedly have (which have been proven to be incorrect multiple times), to bring up Ward Churchill (not relevant to the thread), and pretend that we aren't deserving Americans because we happen to disagree with you?

 

[PeachMonkey]

Well PeachMonkey, what do you expect, every other post from you screams fascist pig!

Can you point out a single post where I referred to you as a pig? Thanks.

As for not being able to debate, I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand what fascism is, how it forms, and what its dangers are, or you might recognize that it's not an insult I'm throwing, but a genuine description of the beliefs you espouse.

 

[Flatlander]

-----------------------------------------------
Mod Note:

Please keep this discussion polite, and on topic.
Thank you for your attention.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Blind]

Who pulled what from the air??? If you knew your history and followed World War 2 you would know that figure is not mine but the accepted approximated figure as to how many U.S. lives were saved by Truman's actions. So if you want to argue that, you'll have to take it to a higher power than me! Please don't lecture me during this era, my Dad was an Ex-Pow, wounded in action, bronze star and held captive in Nazi Germany for 11 months and suffered for people like you and PeachMonkey and that's the part that turns my stomach. These guys fought so you can support morons like Ward Churchill today. You guys don't even have a clue.

I am not supporting Churchill, I am asking where you got 500 thousand to a million deaths from as information, quote me a source and I will have a look.
Here is a site that takes a while to read and doesn't give any specific numbers of dead Vs drop or not drop.http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

Courtesy Doug Long. A lot had to do with conditional and unconditional surrender and Japans Culture that held the Emperor Divine. Here though is the major point I would look at, Japan&#12288;was&#12288;in&#12288;bad&#12288;shape.

”Their report, The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, was issued in July 1946. It declared, "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." (Bernstein, ed., The Atomic Bomb, pg. 52-56).

and

There is no way we can know for certain whether this approach would have ended the Pacific war sooner and with fewer deaths. But one may regret that such an attempt was not made. Had the attempt failed, the continuing blockade of supplies, Soviet invasion, and the atomic bombs were still available. However, anyone tempted to use the atomic bomb would have done well to share the hesitancy agreed upon by President Roosevelt and Great Britain Prime Minister Winston Churchill on September 19, 1944: the atomic bomb "might, perhaps, after mature consideration, be used against the Japanese" (Robert Williams and Philip Cantelon, ed., The American Atom, pg. 45). (School of Advanced Airpower Studies historian Robert Pape has written an intriguing paper stating that further conventional air bombing would have been unnecessary: Why Japan Surrendered, International Security, Fall 1993). It is likely Dwight Eisenhower was right when he said of the atomic bombings of Japan, "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." (Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63, pg. 108

Your&#12288;fathers&#12288;participation&#12288;does&#12288;not&#12288;qualify&#12288;your&#12288;statements&#12288;by&#12288;the&#12288;way&#65294;

 

[rmcrobertson]

Or, we could try reality.

http://www.valourandhorror.com/P_Reply/BC.htm#Effect

I too have read Fussell's, "Thank God For the Atom Bomb."

 

[Blind]

I am not sure I get what you mean....that link is about strategic bombing military and non military targets. Please tell me what you want to say.