A thought...In response to other threads

[KempoGuy06]

The thread started by terry about how to fall on hard surfaces, in the grappling/BJJ/wrestling section here is a link terry's thread, got me thinking. Then I went back to the thread about the legal issues that popped up a couple months ago.

What would happen if someone was to get hurt if you took them down by a throw or flip? Punching or kicking someone is different than a throw or flip, you can use a throw to control the situation, but what if they take a bad fall and break something or worse? We as MA'ist know that amout of force that is needed to control or cause pain, but what is a force outside our control alters the affects of the control we use, can blame be put on us?

B

 

[MarkBarlow]

I'm not a lawyer but I'd bet money that it doesn't matter if the injury was caused by a strike, kick or throw, we'd still need to be able to prove that we were defending ourselves. If the injury was caused maliciously and without cause, how he got hurt is less important than the fact that we inflicted the harm.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I'm not a lawyer but I'd bet money that it doesn't matter if the injury was caused by a strike, kick or throw, we'd still need to be able to prove that we were defending ourselves. If the injury was caused maliciously and without cause, how he got hurt is less important than the fact that we inflicted the harm.

Thats true, very true, but what if we could prove that what we did would not cause that injury. Would it matter? Would that fact that we were still involved label us as guilty?

Thoughts?

B

 

[MarkBarlow]

Thats true, very true, but what if we could prove that what we did would not cause that injury. Would it matter? Would that fact that we were still involved label us as guilty?

Thoughts?

B

If we threw or knocked him down and he took a bad fall, we are responsible for the injury. If we toss someone out a window we can't blame the ground for killing them. But, if we can prove that we were in fear for our life when we threw them, it's all moot.

 

[KempoGuy06]

If we threw or knocked him down and he took a bad fall, we are responsible for the injury. If we toss someone out a window we can't blame the ground for killing them. But, if we can prove that we were in fear for our life when we threw them, it's all moot.

So its all the same, it all comes down to whether we can convince people we were in the right in out actions. Thats sucks something terrible, especially if they have a good lawyer or a biased jury. Life is never fair, is it? Thanks for the response.

B

 

[MarkBarlow]

Bottom line, make sure you can convince a jury that you were in fear for your life. If you have to hurt someone, make sure you're justified and be the first to call 911. Whether you've been injured or not, you're the victim. Make sure the cops know that. Don't strut or brag and don't offer a martial arts resume. If it comes out, be honest but don't volunteer information.

 

[KempoGuy06]

So its all the same, it all comes down to whether we can convince people we were in the right in out actions. Thats sucks something terrible, especially if they have a good lawyer or a biased jury. Life is never fair, is it? Thanks for the response.

B

Sounds good. Thanks again.

B

 

[Drac]

Bottom line, make sure you can convince a jury that you were in fear for your life. If you have to hurt someone, make sure you're justified and be the first to call 911. Whether you've been injured or not, you're the victim. Make sure the cops know that. Don't strut or brag and don't offer a martial arts resume. If it comes out, be honest but don't volunteer information.

Well said Mark...

 

[tshadowchaser]

Originally Posted by MarkBarlow
Bottom line, make sure you can convince a jury that you were in fear for your life. If you have to hurt someone, make sure you're justified and be the first to call 911. Whether you've been injured or not, you're the victim. Make sure the cops know that. Don't strut or brag and don't offer a martial arts resume. If it comes out, be honest but don't volunteer information.

that is about the best answere I have seen in a while

 

[tellner]

I'm not a lawyer, but all the usual principles apply:

Force is force. Deadly force is deadly force. You have to be able to justify either to the police and the jury. So know what you're doing, why you're doing it and make sure that it's appropriate to the situation. Don't get in fights you can avoid. Get training in the legal aspects of self defense.

 

[JBrainard]

Very good posts above, BTW. But isn't "reasonable use of force" also a factor? If a drunk throws a punch at you and you end up throwing or flipping him, what if he lands on his head and break's his neck? Even though you couldn't have predicted that he would break his neck, wouldn't a court consider that an unjust "use of deadly force?"
I don't know, I'm just asking the question.

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Whenever it comes to self-defense one of the bottom lines is "justifiable". You have to prove that you used "justifiable" force. And people such as martial artists, ex military, ex police officers etc, always have a harder time proving that they used only what was "justifiable" to put an end to the situation.
I believe that if it came down to "I used a throw to control him to the ground but he fell wrong and landed on his head etc" the court is going to ask you, was it "justifiable" that you used that throw to try and control the assailant. I think that even in the courts they have this idea that martial artists are magicians and can always control every technique and predict the outcome of every throw and control. The reality is, you don't always know how someone is going to react to a throw or control, maybe they'll fall nicely or maybe they'll flail which I'm sure most or all of us know results in injury.
In the end you have two options, run away and hope that no one saw you (which in my opinion is a rather cowardly way out).
Or, you can be the one to call the police explain your side of the story, know that you were in the right and take whatever punishment is handed to you.
​

 

[Touch Of Death]

The thread started by terry about how to fall on hard surfaces, in the grappling/BJJ/wrestling section here is a link terry's thread, got me thinking. Then I went back to the thread about the legal issues that popped up a couple months ago.

What would happen if someone was to get hurt if you took them down by a throw or flip? Punching or kicking someone is different than a throw or flip, you can use a throw to control the situation, but what if they take a bad fall and break something or worse? We as MA'ist know that amout of force that is needed to control or cause pain, but what is a force outside our control alters the affects of the control we use, can blame be put on us?

B

I think a throw can be, in the end, easier to get away with. Wittnesses seeing you striking versus witnesses seeing you use a man's force againtst him is like apples and oranges.
Sean

 

[Andy Moynihan]

"I'm sorry he made me do it, officer, but he kept chasing me and swinging for at least 50 feet before he caught up with me, I tried to defend myself to save my life and his own forward motion just kept him right on going...."

 

[Touch Of Death]

"I'm sorry he made me do it, officer, but he kept chasing me and swinging for at least 50 feet before he caught up with me, I tried to defend myself to save my life and his own forward motion just kept him right on going...."

Zactly!:angel:

 

[jks9199]

If we threw or knocked him down and he took a bad fall, we are responsible for the injury. If we toss someone out a window we can't blame the ground for killing them. But, if we can prove that we were in fear for our life when we threw them, it's all moot.

I'm not giving legal advice... but the mechanism of injury is largely irrelevant. Throw a guy, do a joint lock and break his arm, or punch him hard enough -- it's still a broken arm. The criminal question is likely to be "was the force used justified in light of the threat presented?" Civilly... that's a huge mess, and I won't even try to get into it.

I say "largely irrelevant" because if you use something likely to cause serious harm or death (like a baton or knife or gun) -- it's still assualt with a deadly weapon. You really need to be able to justify using that level of force...