A Second American Civil War?

[Bob Hubbard]

Is it possible?

I've heard the saying "theres gonna be a revolution here" usually in reference to all the BS the polititians do. The idea that the American people will get so fed up that they will take up arms and overthrow the 'despots'.

The first American Revolution was about breaking free of an oppressive government an ocean away.

The second American Revolution / first Civil War was about the issue of states rights vs federal rights and control of the institution of slavery.

IF a third revolution / second civil war were to occur, it strikes me that it would be over one of 3 things:
- Gay Rights
- Religious Rights
- Political Abuses.

I don't believe the "Gay" issue will turn into another major conflict. I do however fully expect it to be marked with similar violence as the race riots of the 60s and 70's.

The Religious issue will be fought in the courts, and quietly, in the homes. I don't see that turning majorly violent, though I do expect there to be several more skirmishes. Regarless of law, I will continue to believe as I do. My heart knows the truth. The symbol on the wall can hide a lie.

Political abuses. This one would be the key. The question here is, are the American people up for it? A tier 1 nation will usually not revolt. There are several Tier 2 nations (most noticibly Russia) that with the collapse of their political system, have degenerated into an unstable situation that is more than 'unrest, yet less than a full blown civil war.

The question here is, are we heading in a similar direction?
If Bush wins, will the opposition take up arms?
If Bush loses, will he relinquish power?

Would it take an even greater disaster similar to the Great Depression to really put the US over the edge?

Can 20-30 "gun nuts" really offer much of a challenge to the highly trained forces in our military today?


I've thought about it for a long time now...and, I don't think, short of a major disaster, that the US will ever again war with itself. I don't think the people care enough to fight, and I don't think small groups of 'militia' will pose much of a threat to the mainline military. Unless a major army unit rebels (equipment and all), I just can't see it.

Thoughts?

 

[MisterMike]

Of the items in the list, political abuses may be the worst but may not be enough to spark anything.

I think when all guns are outlawed, that's when the fireworks are going to be lit.

After all, it's the gun owners who are going to be the majority factor in any revolt. Most aren't going to pick up arms over gay marriage, but take away their toys and look out....

 

[MisterMike]

Oh, kind of a followup - I guess that wouldn't be a Civil War.

I can't find any reasons for the States to have at it. Plus I think a majority of the gun owners are on the right, so there would have to be some issue to reallllly divide them in order to have at it in Civil War fashion.

 

[dearnis.com]

Can 20-30 "gun nuts" really offer much of a challenge to the highly trained forces in our military today?

Short answer is yes. We aren't going to use things like close air support in our own communities (one hopes...). Many "gun nuts" are prior military. The best historical example is probably the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Without entering a debate, a handful of starved, beaten, mostly unarmed Jews held off the German army, if only for a little while.

Chad

 

[rmcrobertson]

The first thing that's of interest to me in this topic is the extent to which extreme right-wing and fundamentalist Protestants in this country actively hope that some sort of national conflagration would break out.

Look at the fiction, from those loonbox "Left Behind," books all the way through to right wing sf by Pournelle, Ringo, etc. And I liked "Red Dawn," but c'mahn...

It isn't a matter of, "rights," at all. It isn't even a matter being offended by something like gun control. Essentially, the hope seems to be one of setting the clock back as far as possible--or more exactly, it's a hope of going back to a fantasized America that never actually existed, one in which women and darkies of every sort knew their place, one in which ever'body believed in the fundamantalist Jehovah, one in which there were no gay people, one in which a White Man was free to do exactly as he damn well pleased, without no interference from no lib'ral.

Oh yes--also prominent in these, "turn back the clock," dreams are fantasies of an America once again uber alles in die Welt. They bother us, we bomb them. Or send in the Marines, who will always be somebody else's kids.

They're interesting fantasies, shared--oddly enough--by the very people so despised in these images, dreams, books, movies--shared by fundamentalist Islam nutbars, that is to say, who also want to go back to the thirteenth century.

The "civil war," crap, in other words, is simply code for, "Let's get rid of everything I don't like, especially if it involves giving women, darkies and fags any rights."

And oh yes--I wouldn't trust the yahoos in these militias to watch my back for a second. Typically--well, let's just say that Ollie North comes quickly to mind; damn few of 'em are anything like, say, Bo Gritz. You notice, for example, that Timothy McVeigh and those guys never admitted what they'd done, let alone stood up for it; the Waco wacko shot himself, and took as many helpless kids with him as he could. And the Ruby Ridge guy basically used his kids and wife as human shields. Are they dangerous? Sure, if they outnumber you and they've got more guns and it's dark and they're behind you.

They'd never have the guts of the Viet Minh and Viet Cong, who whatever else can be said about their barbarity, gutted it out against colonial oppressors for about thirty-five years. Nor do they have the same level of moral justification.

The folks who push these sorts of fictions always forget something even more basic: the complexity of the society they rely upon for everything. And they forget just how poorly small arms work against modern weapons. And they refuse to understand that is is far too late in history for this sort of nonsense...which is why they're always dragging in the Antichrist, or space aliens, or plagues, as excuses.

 

[michaeledward]

I can certainly see the South attempting to secede again. I don't think it would be about political misbehavior, or about gay rights ... but it will be all about religion; fundamental Christian religion. To a certain extent, the gay rights argument & religion are one and the same, at least to the Christian Conservative. "God intended 'Man and Woman' to go together". What supreme arrogance to speak of God's intentions. Good Grief!

I think many of those in the 'Bible Belt' are offended that the 'Lord's Prayer' is no longer allowed in school; that you can't display the 10 Commandments in the Courtroom; that human biology (human sexuality) is taught in the schools.

As long as the United States Supreme Court continues to define the First Amendment to the Constitution; "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion", to mean that the State shall not support any one religion over another, the 'Moral Majority'/'Religious Right'/'Bible Belt' is going to get hot under the collar. With increasing immigration from the far flung reaches of the globe, more and more lawsuits against Protestantism are going to arise. This will no doubt create a backlash. Such a backlash could be fueled by the satellite fundraising organization ... oops ... preaching organizations, calling all believers not just to send in their money, but to take up arms in defense of some sick prophet (David Koresh).

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

I know, even the Devil can quote scripture if it serves him

 

[kenpo tiger]

Guys,

I have no idea of where Robertson is from, but notice you're all Easterners otherwise (me too - and female, to boot!)

I agree with the notion that the South may attempt to secede again on religious grounds. There's still way too much display of the rebel flag south of the Manson/Nixon line - and bedsheets as well. Under our basic freedom of expression, I guess they're allowed to do all that, but it scares me. In fact, it scares me enough to not want to visit points south at all (Florida is a whole other world and let's don't go there, thank you). The bible thumpers around here are Black Southern Baptists and usually keep to themselves, except the once or twice a year the missionaries come by. Telling them what my religion is usually dissuades them from any argument/discussion, and they leave. However, also BECAUSE of my religion, I'd be one of the first targeted, along with them, if the 'deliverance' boys do run amok.

So, should I be taking off to the woods to hide behind MichaelEdward in glorious New Hampshire? Or, should I add weapons training to my ma training? Or - are they a non-issue, as was also stated above? As long as people like our current president have any say, I'm frightened for my children's rights and liberties. At least he can't draft them. KT

 

[Mark Weiser]

KT! I am or will be adding Firearms Training to my school. My Plan is to have a combat ranch to train civies combat tactics in reference to firearms such as snap shooting (this is done while clearing a room or walking thur unfamiliar areas), fast draw shooting from a concealed holster (this is done while on the streets you have about 3-5 seconds in a firefight to win), The Three shot rule (Two to the Body and then One to the Head), shooting while on the move, This is not target practice empty your weapon and reload never taking your eyes off the bad guy, etc....

To give someone who owns a handgun the confidence to use it in a confrontation with criminals and or terrorist.

 

[Melissa426]

Funny, I was just thinking about this today...

I have a crazy (not literally psychiatrically crazy) Uncle Wally, who is in his mid '50's, who hates the federal government with a passion.

He hasn't paid taxes in 30 years.
He believes 9-11 was a government conspiracy, and he has videotapes to prove it.
He doesn't go any where with out his guns ( and he has several ). He keeps them in his car trunk, cause other wise you never know when the Feds are going to break into your house and take them all away.
He was a member of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple which got into serious trouble with the government over not withholding income taxes from their employees' wages (said government can't dictate that because of separation between church and state).

I expect to see him in the paper someday as part of a group that did try to secede from the Union or overthrow the government.

He claims that there are millions of Americans who feel the same way he does, but they have been brainwashed by the government that there is nothing they can do about it.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I have actually been offered a Commission in a Milita group once as a Captain due to my background. I turned them down.

I was also approached by another local group for recuritment and all the material and info I got was turned over to the KBI after they came to my house that is the KBI.

So I have been around them a little and I do worry about thier motives.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Funny, I was just thinking about this today...

I have a crazy (not literally psychiatrically crazy) Uncle Wally, who is in his mid '50's, who hates the federal government with a passion.

He hasn't paid taxes in 30 years.
He believes 9-11 was a government conspiracy, and he has videotapes to prove it.
He doesn't go any where with out his guns ( and he has several ). He keeps them in his car trunk, cause other wise you never know when the Feds are going to break into your house and take them all away.
He was a member of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple which got into serious trouble with the government over not withholding income taxes from their employees' wages (said government can't dictate that because of separation between church and state).

I expect to see him in the paper someday as part of a group that did try to secede from the Union or overthrow the government.

He claims that there are millions of Americans who feel the same way he does, but they have been brainwashed by the government that there is nothing they can do about it.

Melissa,
We must be related somehow. One of my relatives always carries a gun - even at my wedding - 'because you never know when your enemies will surface.' He, too, did his part for 'civil disobedience', but I won't go into that -- because he carries a gun. KT

 

[kenpo tiger]

I have actually been offered a Commission in a Milita group once as a Captain due to my background. I turned them down.

I was also approached by another local group for recuritment and all the material and info I got was turned over to the KBI after they came to my house that is the KBI.

So I have been around them a little and I do worry about thier motives.

Mark,
I guess Kansas isn't all Dorothy and Toto, too.
How are there commissions in militia groups? Naive Easterner needs to know. KT

 

[Melissa426]

Melissa,
We must be related somehow. One of my relatives always carries a gun - even at my wedding - 'because you never know when your enemies will surface.' He, too, did his part for 'civil disobedience', but I won't go into that -- because he carries a gun. KT

There's probably one somewhere in every family !
We just smile and try very hard not to get him too riled up. Fortunately, my brother and sisters and I are the only ones in the family he really likes.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Melissa426--we have a surprising number of people like your uncle in Indiana. Ask him if he buys his guns at Bradis Guns on Rt. 67. If he doesn't, he ought to. Good prices.

No, I don't think there will be a revolution here in the U.S. Ideology and violence don't mix the way they used to, and given all the problems of our economy, we still are a well fed herd. Well fed people are complacent people.

But your speculation as to what would happen if Bush were to NOT step down is interesting. What if there were an attack after the election and he refused to hand over the office?

Yeah...I think that would cause some serious problems. You'd have Democrats buying guns, I suppose. That is, more Democrats than the current number, which is two. The other guy's name is Phil, and he lives in Nebraska.

We're our own support group.


Regards,

Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, the sad part is, every time these topics come up, I realize that Lewis', "It Can't Happen Here," migh as well have been written yesterday.

It is also important to remember that a lot of the "intellectual," justification for this sort of horrror is coming from the likes of Michael Savage, G. Gordon Liddy, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Ollie North, Rush Limbaugh and--regrettably--our current Administration.

Why? Well, because who else is it who is getting on the airwaves and telling us to, "Shoot the ATF in the head...they wear body armor" (Liddy); or screaming that so-and-so is, "a traitor to their country," (Savage, Hannity, Limbaugh); or attacking John Kerrey's service in Vietnam (fill in the blank)? Who's circumventing federal law (Ollie North) to finance death squads that attacked elected governments in Latin America, and who makes his living going around selling this crap (Ollie North) to fundamentalist Christians?

Oh yes--when a sitting President (Ronald Reagan) gives speeches to evangelical groups in which he talks about the End Times as due any day now, and gets on the radio and makes jokes about bombing the Soviet Union (look it up), it's dangerous. It's dangerous because it encourages violence.

It helps legitimate the notion that this country is already engaged in civil war; it encourages religious hatred; it aids and abets dangerous claims that somebody with whom we disagree is actively evil.

And, these clowns are not all that far from "The Turner Diaries," only a little removed from screeching about ZOG and mud people...kissin' cousins in discourse, in fact.

Remember, too, it's not so long ago that the likes of John Ashcroft and a host of conservative flacks started getting on TV and debating the legitimacy of "preventative detention," and torture in times of national emergency--and what happened next?

It's appalling, and it ought to be repudiated. By Republicans, since Democrats don't seem to be pulling this crap--at least not this time around. By martial artists, who should know enough to see violence of any kind as an ugly, immoral, unglamorous last resort.

 

[Disco]

IF a third revolution / second civil war were to occur, it strikes me that it would be over one of 3 things:
- Gay Rights
- Religious Rights
- Political Abuses.

Didn't you overlook a 4th thing? Those other 3 impact and bolster the 4th. I won't say what it is, but I will talk around it and see who picks up on it.

-4th - A segment of society that has been downsized, outsourced, rejected because of political correctness and unquoterized. :uhohh:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok... are we talking about 'white males' or 'tech workers'? Both would fit, I think.

 

[Tgace]

Unfortunately, as a white male, I find myself in a situation where Im "afraid" to complain about such topics for fear of being labeled various things......

 

[Cryozombie]

Unfortunately, as a white male, I find myself in a situation where Im "afraid" to complain about such topics for fear of being labeled various things......

Agreed.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Well, that's the glory of the internet. If you don't want your messages being labeled based on your identity, you don't have to identify yourself. To an extent, anyway.