A few questions.

[Suntail]

'Lo

So I'm new at formal TKD training, I just started a class at my college a few weeks ago. I do have years of experiance in a few different arts and a few of my first training partners took TKD for years. I have a few questions for some people on this board if that's all right, particularly any instructors.

First off, I do some techniques just a little differently then my instructor. My instructor always seems to be exceedingly annoyed when I do things differently. Is it really offensive if I do a few things my way, or should I do things his way exactly, all the time?

Second, if I can take a few things a little further then he's teaching should I hold back? If so, should I ask permision first?

Third, if I wanted to get more advanced, should I try to test for a belt? If I was going to test for a belt, what should I need to study before I tested?

Fourth, how formal are ITF classes normally? I've generally been in fairly casual classes so it feels weird having to stand in specific stances when I'm not doing anything in particular, and it seems like I'm bowing an awful lot.

I'd really appreciate any help I could get. Thank you in advance.

 

[Kacey]

'Lo

So I'm new at formal TKD training, I just started a class at my college a few weeks ago. I do have years of experiance in a few different arts and a few of my first training partners took TKD for years. I have a few questions for some people on this board if that's all right, particularly any instructors.

First of all, welcome!!!!

First off, I do some techniques just a little differently then my instructor. My instructor always seems to be exceedingly annoyed when I do things differently. Is it really offensive if I do a few things my way, or should I do things his way exactly, all the time?

It depends on your instructor's reasons for wanting exact replication. As an instructor (and I started in an ITF class, although we later dropped our ITF affiliation for reasons not relevant to this discussion) there are some things I extremely particular about, because I am trying to develop certain specific habits; other things I will let go because they are part of an individual's style. Maybe you could provide some specific examples - then I might be able to give more specific feedback.

Second, if I can take a few things a little further then he's teaching should I hold back? If so, should I ask permision first?

Yes, to both. There is a sequence to instruction that may not (and probably should not) make sense to you at this point. I have a wide range of ranks and abilities in my class, and I teach things to some students that others may be able to copy - and I won't let them, becuase of the sequence I use for instruction. So you can ask... but the answer is likely to be no. Also, be sure to ask this in private, not in front of the class. Alternatively, you might ask a senior student within the class about this, it can vary from class to class.

Third, if I wanted to get more advanced, should I try to test for a belt? If I was going to test for a belt, what should I need to study before I tested?

The tradition I came from is that you study what your instructor presents; anything else you choose to study is additional (and always a good idea). Again, ask your seniors if there is anything you're supposed to know (theory, history, etc.) that may not be presented in class, and where you find it.

Fourth, how formal are ITF classes normally? I've generally been in fairly casual classes so it feels weird having to stand in specific stances when I'm not doing anything in particular, and it seems like I'm bowing an awful lot.

I'd really appreciate any help I could get. Thank you in advance.

Yes, standing in specific stances is very important - if nothing else, it's designed to ensure that you a) learn the stances and b) build the muscles needed to maintain them. Also, it teaches discipline.

My grad school class break is over - I'll check back later.

 

[Suntail]

Kacey, I guess I should have been more specific, sorry.

I keep a hand low, a couple inches above the floating ribs, in walking stance. I have tendency to switch tools during punches, so instead of a basic fist I occasionally us a palm thrust or something. I switch to a knife hand on some blocks. My return from a snap kick isn't straight back (torn cartilage in my knee, I'm not changing this one). I rotate the back foot on kicks, depending on the kick. When we were practicing falls I kind of rocked instead of falling flat on my back, didn't throw my arms out to slap the pads, and I did a roll once. I push my middle block too far out, so an attack wouldn't hit any part of me. I keep my hands in front of me in a relaxed position. I throw my snap kicks too high. My jump switch is too low. I don't count off pushups, and such, in Korean. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Some of these I know I should change for the class, but others seem harmless to me, and others are so habitual I don't realize I'm doing them.

And thanks for all the advice.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

'Lo

First off, I do some techniques just a little differently then my instructor. My instructor always seems to be exceedingly annoyed when I do things differently. Is it really offensive if I do a few things my way, or should I do things his way exactly, all the time?

Second, if I can take a few things a little further then he's teaching should I hold back? If so, should I ask permision first?

Third, if I wanted to get more advanced, should I try to test for a belt? If I was going to test for a belt, what should I need to study before I tested?

I'd really appreciate any help I could get. Thank you in advance.

Hello and welcome to the group.

I am going to offer a little more hardnose response than most, but this is my opinion.

For the first question, if you don't want to do things the way he is teaching, either find a new school, or open one of your own since you know a better way.

For the second question, ask permission. It may be better to ask permission before class starts. Besides, is sounds like you feel you know better than the teacher again, so you may want to rethink what you are going to say to your teacher.

Finally, for the third question, your teacher should be able to decide when to promote you to another rank. Remember, it is up to him to promote you (or not promote you), since it is his school and his name that will be on the promotion. Besides, what is the rush? Belts represent what you know, nothing more. When you are ready, your teacher will promote you. I would suggest talking to him/her and tell him that you feel you are ready and would he view your techniques and check them out.

Don't feel that I was being rude in that response; I was not. That is just my opinion.

AoG

 

[exile]

Hello and welcome to the group.
I am going to offer a little more hardnose response than most, but this is my opinion.

For the first question, if you don't want to do things the way he is teaching, either find a new school, or open one of your own since you know a better way.

Hello Suntail,

AoG's response is pretty hardnosed, but I think he's basically on target in what he's saying. I think it's a good policy to start from the assumption that your instructor knows what s/he's doing---that s/he has a good reason for wanting you to do things a certain way. The difference in form might be small, but it could correspond to a big difference in application. To your instructor, if he's thinking about a certain bunkai for a hyung, a closed fist in a certain move might translate into a hair (or ear) grab/pull preparatory to a 180 degree turn corresponding to a throw. An open hand might very well not be the right code-move for that part of the application, because an open hand isn't really a very good way of grabbing anything! So give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he has a reason for what he's doing. He probably does, and that's why he's the instructor and you're the student. What AoG is saying, I think, is that if you don't believe that's the case, it seems odd that you're going to him [your instructor] for training.

For the second question, ask permission. It may be better to ask permission before class starts. Besides, is sounds like you feel you know better than the teacher again, so you may want to rethink what you are going to say to your teacher.

I don't necessarily think you think you actually know better than your instructor; my sense was, you just don't think it makes all that much of a difference. But what Kacey said in her reply to you is really on target: there may be a sequence of instruction here that you aren't aware of, i.e., it does make a difference what you do and when. To me, this is another assume-he-knows-knows-what-he's-doing issue. If you don't make this assumption, then as AoG says, it's not clear why you doing your training with him.

Finally, for the third question, your teacher should be able to decide when to promote you to another rank. Remember, it is up to him to promote you (or not promote you), since it is his school and his name that will be on the promotion. Besides, what is the rush? Belts represent what you know, nothing more. When you are ready, your teacher will promote you.

Again, right on target. I've never yet once asked my instructor when my next belt test is. I figure, he'll let me know when I'm ready, and my main concern is that I don't want him to schedule me for a belt test I'm not completely confident of passing. When I went up for my brown belt test, that's what I was really feeling most. Since I know from long experience that my instructor has a reason for everything he does, I was able to convince myself that whatever my reservations, I better just get used to the idea that I was going to test for brown on the date he told me. He was right, as always; and I think that will be the case with most instructors. They test you when they are certain that you already are good enough to pass.

I would suggest talking to him/her and tell him that you feel you are ready and would he view your techniques and check them out.

It's up to you. You're going to get there in the end, right? And as AoG points out, it's not the belt per se, it's how much you know and can do---how good you are, that counts.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I guess I should have been more specific, sorry.

No problem - you have to start somewhere.

My return from a snap kick isn't straight back (torn cartilage in my knee, I'm not changing this one).

I took this one out of order because it is a different issue than the rest of them. This one you need to discuss with your instructor. If you have an injury that affects your ability to perform a technique as instructed, your instructor needs to know about it.

I keep a hand low, a couple inches above the floating ribs, in walking stance. I have tendency to switch tools during punches, so instead of a basic fist I occasionally us a palm thrust or something. I switch to a knife hand on some blocks. I rotate the back foot on kicks, depending on the kick. My return from a snap kick isn't straight back (torn cartilage in my knee, I'm not changing this one). I rotate the back foot on kicks, depending on the kick. When we were practicing falls I kind of rocked instead of falling flat on my back, didn't throw my arms out to slap the pads, and I did a roll once. I push my middle block too far out, so an attack wouldn't hit any part of me. I keep my hands in front of me in a relaxed position. I throw my snap kicks too high. My jump switch is too low. I don't count off pushups, and such, in Korean. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Some of these I know I should change for the class, but others seem harmless to me, and others are so habitual I don't realize I'm doing them.

And thanks for all the advice.

These may seem harmless to you, but your instructor wants you to do things his way for a reason. As I said before, your instructor may or may not share his reasons for doing things the way he does - but he is the instructor. Since you differentiate between "seem harmless to me" and "habitual", I'm going to assume you see a difference in the two sets.

For the first set, just because it seems harmless to you doesn't mean that it is. There was a guy I trained with as a color belt and I Dan - he had a habit of holding his mouthguard in his teeth, a half inch or so forward from where it should have been. We kept telling him he was going to get hurt, but he said he had trouble breathing through it, and he would just be sure to block his face... that lasted until he got to his first tournament, and someone punched him in the mouth. Luckily for him, all he got was a split lip and a cut on his tongue - he could have lost teeth from something he considered to be harmless.

For the second set, the things that are habitual, as above, there are reasons why your instructor wants them done a different way - and you will have to change your habits it you're ever going to perform the way he wants you to... The only way to change a habit is to work on it until it is different - and as long as you're not doing things the way he wants, you're not going to test, because you're not going to pass - because he is teaching you the things you need to know to pass - and more, he is teaching you to do things the way they will work (in his training and experience) in a self-defense situation. In addition, when I was coming up through the ranks (and I'm a IV Dan now), testing was at the instructor's discretion - my sahbum told me I was testing when he felt I was ready. People who weren't ready didn't test, and it was up to them to find out what to work on. People who asked to test didn't. I still run my class this same way.

And I have to say that ArmorOfGod is correct - if you don't like the way he teaches, find another class. You are the student - it is not up to you to tell the instructor that he is wrong. Think about it this way: when I was a teen, my mother and I took a road trip before I learned how to drive. She taught me enough to be able to get the car off the road. When I started Driver's Ed., some of the things my mother had taught me contradicted things the Driver's Ed. instructor taught me - but it never would have dawned on me to tell the instructor she was wrong. You are in a similar situation - you learned a different way from a different person, and therefore you are willing to tell a different instructor he is wrong. Different is not necessarily wrong - it's different.

Gen. Choi, who founded ITF TKD, wrote a set of volumes called The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do. The piece that is relevant here is the Student/Instructor Relationship - pay particular attention to the bolded lines.

10 Parts of the Student/Instructor Relationship:

1) Never tire of learning. A good student can learn anytime, anywhere.

2) A good student must be willing to sacrifice for his art and instructor.

3) Always set a good example for lower ranking students.

4) Always be loyal to your instructor.

5) If your instructor teaches you a technique, practice and attempt to utilize it.

6) Remember that a student’s conduct outside the dojang reflects on his instructor and school.

7) If a student adopts a technique from another gym and his instructor disapproves of it, the student must discard the technique.

8) Never be disrespectful to your instructor. Though a student is allowed to disagree, the student must follow instructions first and discuss the matter later.

9) A student must always be eager to ask questions and to learn.

10) Never betray your instructor’s trust.

This the philosophical base your instructor was likely taught from, and it is this base that leads to your disagreements.


Especially since you say that you learned other arts/styles, you need to recognize that what is correct for one art/style doesn't mean it's correct in TKD, and you will have to modify your training/habits to suit the style you are learning now, because that is how this particular art does it - and it's not going to be easy. Several members of MT have learned multiple styles, and have gone through this same issue - you could probably find quite a bit about it using the search feature, or you could ask about learning multiple arts/styles and how to adjust from one to another.

 

[matt.m]

'Lo

So I'm new at formal TKD training, I just started a class at my college a few weeks ago. I do have years of experiance in a few different arts and a few of my first training partners took TKD for years. I have a few questions for some people on this board if that's all right, particularly any instructors.

Welcome Man.

First off, I do some techniques just a little differently then my instructor. My instructor always seems to be exceedingly annoyed when I do things differently. Is it really offensive if I do a few things my way, or should I do things his way exactly, all the time?

Different styles have different ways of executing a side kick for example. The reason, most likely would be for continuity and same same to keep others from asking "Why is he doing it different?"

Also if it is poomse or forms then yes, they are set in a specific way to be just that. They are set at a standard.

Second, if I can take a few things a little further then he's teaching should I hold back? If so, should I ask permision first?

In what context do you mean?

Third, if I wanted to get more advanced, should I try to test for a belt? If I was going to test for a belt, what should I need to study before I tested?

Ask him what the cirriculum is. That is the best way to start.

Fourth, how formal are ITF classes normally? I've generally been in fairly casual classes so it feels weird having to stand in specific stances when I'm not doing anything in particular, and it seems like I'm bowing an awful lot.

To me there is no difference from ITF and WTF tkd. To me the only difference is the set of forms.

I'd really appreciate any help I could get. Thank you in advance.

So there you have it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

'Lo

So I'm new at formal TKD training, I just started a class at my college a few weeks ago. I do have years of experiance in a few different arts and a few of my first training partners took TKD for years. I have a few questions for some people on this board if that's all right, particularly any instructors.

First off, I do some techniques just a little differently then my instructor. My instructor always seems to be exceedingly annoyed when I do things differently. Is it really offensive if I do a few things my way, or should I do things his way exactly, all the time?

Second, if I can take a few things a little further then he's teaching should I hold back? If so, should I ask permision first?

Third, if I wanted to get more advanced, should I try to test for a belt? If I was going to test for a belt, what should I need to study before I tested?

Fourth, how formal are ITF classes normally? I've generally been in fairly casual classes so it feels weird having to stand in specific stances when I'm not doing anything in particular, and it seems like I'm bowing an awful lot.

I'd really appreciate any help I could get. Thank you in advance.

My two cents on the issue is that twenty years ago I took a TKD class, and the instructor was trying to teach me a concept i am only now starting to understand but the way he was doing it was so unpalatable I left. I say as long as you are there do it their way, you just might learn something.
Sean

 

[Suntail]

I would like to thank everybody for their advice, I plan to stick to most of it, and it's good to know that I have some place to come when I want help.
As to why I don't find another instructor: GPA and tuition. I can't afford to fail, or drop, this class. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can, given that I have at least a term under this instructor.
I would like to apologize. I'm obviously way off base. I should take things at the rate the instructor gives them. I guess I was just frustrated about the pace of the class; I was venting. This is the wrong place to do it. Sorry.

 

[Kacey]

This is a great place to vent; however, I didn't read it as a vent - I read it as legitimate questions. People vent about their MA training on MT all the time - there's no problem with it.

 

[matt.m]

I am a chronic ventor man, no worries at all.

 

[Suntail]

In that case (just venting, it's meaningless, so don't feel obligated to read it.), I can't stand that I've had 19 hours of class time in ITF and have only been taught: a middle punch, a middle block, a snap kick, a side kick, walking stance, jump switch, how to fall, kihoping (is that the right spelling for TKD?), a new way to bow and two non-combat stances. That's, what, almost two hours a technique including the ones that should take a few minutes, not entire classes. I hate how my instructor doesn't explain how to fix things, and just says how things are wrong ("you need to fix that kick"). If I didn't know other people who do TKD (with other instructors), I would never know exactly what I was doing incorrectly. Even worse is how he's taken to saying "you're doing fine" when I ask him ways I could improve a technique, now that I've started fixing things (my list was a lot longer a week ago), even when I know that there's stuff I could be doing better (nobody's perfect). I hate the pace of the class, I should be sweating, at least a little, by the end of an hour long class. I hate how I'm not picking things up immediatly from his demonstrations, especially becuase most of what he's shown has been fairly simple, and I'm just overcomplicating it. I hate that I have questions to ask after class, or that I have to ask him to repeat a demonstration. I hate that I'm not doing things hard enough to brake into a sweat. I hate that I'm letting pain stop me from doing things correctly. I hate that I have to wear a knee brace, and wrap my ankle before I can really train hard. I hate that I haven't taken time off of work so I could just talk with him before class to ask him what he wants me to change, what habits he's trying to devolop and what he thinks is my personal style. I hate that I have chemistry immediatly after my TKD class, so I can't talk to him afterwards. I hate that for some unexplainable reason I don't get along with my instructor. I hate that I make things hard for the instructor, and that I do things so people ask me questions instead of the instructor, who has enough experiance that students should respect him enough to ask him. And now I know I've got pride and greed at the root of most of this, that I hadn't realized I had before.

Now I'm vented. It feels kinda good.

The only problem is it doesn't fix anything. I could go on all day and I'd be no better off. I'd just feel a little better. That's why I my original vent was much better, IMO. Venting with a purpose. You got to focus on the solutions, not the problem, right?

 

[exile]

I would like to apologize. I'm obviously way off base.

No, why would you say that? Everything you asked was absolutely, totally reasonable. Why think there was anything to apologize about? I suspect a lot of people have questions like this and you did a very good thing by asking them.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I was venting. This is the wrong place to do it. Sorry.

I disagree with that. This is a great place to vent.
;-)

Is this tkd class part of you college class roster? If so, then that is very cool.

AoG

 

[Suntail]

Exile, I was apologizing becuase it seems the answer is simple. Trust your instructor until you have a reason not to. I should have had more patience.

AoG, Yeah it's an HLAC class at the college. I figured I have to take one eventually, why not do something I should enjoy?

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Suntail, you commented about being frustrated by not having learned much after 19 hours.

My first month under one of my instructor's was to class stand in a horse stance in front of mirror and do an inside to outside middle level block.

That was it. For an entire month!

So you should be thankful...not frustrated.

Look...your instructor has something YOU want. You don't have ANYTHING he wants. He already has his skill and rank. You are trying to get his teaching so you can get YOUR skill and rank. So it is encumbent upon you to not tick him off by being willful or impatient. Also....just changing techinques during a drill because you are bored is extremely bad manners and disrespect to a Teacher. In the old days.....you would have been tossed out of the window for continuing to do this (and my class was on the 3rd floor).

It's nice that you have prior experience...but even though I am a Master, when I visit another Master's school I wear a white belt...and do things his way....because he is the Master there. Any consideration he shows me is out of his own humility, manners and acknowledgment of me as a peer. Not because he has to. It is his class....his school. The truth of it is....students today need to realize that until they earn their black belt...they are basically guests....and should mind their manners and act accordingly. You don't really become a student of a Master until you get your black belt. Then you begin to take your first steps to true Martial Art Mastery. That's what Chodan means....'First Step'.


So take a chill pill. If you aren't happy with what you are doing....drop the class and take up ....oh....I don't know...art appreciation....or bowling...or something.

The Emperor

 

[exile]

Exile, I was apologizing becuase it seems the answer is simple. Trust your instructor until you have a reason not to. I should have had more patience.

But if you're a perfectionist---which it sounds like, from your posts, and which a lot of MA people are---patience does not come easily.