I found this on the BBC site and it was quite an interesting read as it gave a point of view not commonly heard:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10547610
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10547610
A Different View on the present Wars
- Thread starter Sukerkin
- Start date
Very interesting, thanks. I agree that the feeling exists, and it's not commonly understood.
I got out in 1985. When the first Gulf War happened, I tried to get back in. I was overweight; the recruiter said lose 30 pounds and we'll take you back. I lost the 30 pounds, but by then, the war was essentially over. I didn't reenlist after all. When 9/11 happened, the pull to go back was strong, but I presumed I was too old to reenlist. It was only when I met a 50-year-old corporal who reenlisted after 25+ years out that I learned it *could* have gotten back in via the Reserves and then augmented back to Active Duty. Well, I'm married and have responsibilities now, I guess it's for the best that I didn't go back. But the pull was so strong; my Brothers were fighting and I wasn't. Even after so many years, I never stop wanting to pick up a rifle and run towards the sound of the guns. I think many of us who served are that way.
In these current times it's not the thing to admit to wanting to fight whether in the ring/cage as a fighter or in the military, we are supposed to be 'beyond' all that. However there remains in us that spark, that 'warrior' gene that makes us want to go out and do battle. The rights and wrongs can be argued about but it can't be denied, it's there. I see young soldiers who can't wait to get out to Afghan and others who are on the rear parties nagging their bosses to get out there.
It's a complicated thing this warrior gene, yes going out and standing shoulder to shoulder with your comrades is part of it, proving yourself in battle, an ages old feeling is another. Another is the 'aliveness' that comes from surviving battle and something as dangerous as a war. To deny all this is dangerous, to tell these soldiers they are wrong and their feelings in battle are wrong is to cause problems later. We don't like the feelings being in battle produces, we don't like that a thrill of adrenaline can make us feel so good, and it seems so wrong to get this feeling while killing others. There's the feeling too of being with your mates something that can probably not be replicated anywhere else, that close bonding between warriors.
The regimental system we have here is based on family and mates so the first thing is that you are fighting for them, if too you are defending your country and doing your duty that too produces great pride. Despite modern times we need something bigger than ourselves to be part of,to be in something glorious and heroic. Make no mistake our army is still made up of scoundrels but when they are fighting for our country they are amazing, they perform feats of bravery with cool courage and they sacrifice themselves for their mates with an ease and confidence that takes your breath away at such acts that only seemed to be in ancient stories. It's humbling.
Modern times means a lot of this is sanitised and made to feel wrong but the truth is these soldiers are old fashioned warriors like it or not and the feeling of being left behind is as strong as grief. Those of us left behind who may not understand this bond and need for battle, are the ones who grieve for the dead as lives wasted and tend the wounded. The servicemen and women though are the glorious and heroic warriors who deserve all the praise given to the warriors of old.
It's a complicated thing this warrior gene, yes going out and standing shoulder to shoulder with your comrades is part of it, proving yourself in battle, an ages old feeling is another. Another is the 'aliveness' that comes from surviving battle and something as dangerous as a war. To deny all this is dangerous, to tell these soldiers they are wrong and their feelings in battle are wrong is to cause problems later. We don't like the feelings being in battle produces, we don't like that a thrill of adrenaline can make us feel so good, and it seems so wrong to get this feeling while killing others. There's the feeling too of being with your mates something that can probably not be replicated anywhere else, that close bonding between warriors.
The regimental system we have here is based on family and mates so the first thing is that you are fighting for them, if too you are defending your country and doing your duty that too produces great pride. Despite modern times we need something bigger than ourselves to be part of,to be in something glorious and heroic. Make no mistake our army is still made up of scoundrels but when they are fighting for our country they are amazing, they perform feats of bravery with cool courage and they sacrifice themselves for their mates with an ease and confidence that takes your breath away at such acts that only seemed to be in ancient stories. It's humbling.
Modern times means a lot of this is sanitised and made to feel wrong but the truth is these soldiers are old fashioned warriors like it or not and the feeling of being left behind is as strong as grief. Those of us left behind who may not understand this bond and need for battle, are the ones who grieve for the dead as lives wasted and tend the wounded. The servicemen and women though are the glorious and heroic warriors who deserve all the praise given to the warriors of old.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I've been itching for a fight for months, no time for MA with the new job really sucks.
CoryKS
Senior Master
From the movie Patton:
There's always a desire to be part of history. And yeah, if you have kids and they find out you were in the service, they will ask about what you did.
There's always a desire to be part of history. And yeah, if you have kids and they find out you were in the service, they will ask about what you did.
Probably one of the most moving and stirring speeches ever made and every word true.
Laurence Olivier filmed Henry V during the last war and when he made this speech, it truly did mean something to everyone who heard it then. It still speaks now.
Lt. Col. Tim Collins' speech to the Royal Irish on Wednesday 19th March 2003 in Iraq.
http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/2003/03/collins/
Laurence Olivier filmed Henry V during the last war and when he made this speech, it truly did mean something to everyone who heard it then. It still speaks now.
Lt. Col. Tim Collins' speech to the Royal Irish on Wednesday 19th March 2003 in Iraq.
http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/2003/03/collins/
We go to liberate, not to conquer.
We will not fly our flags in their country
We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own.
Show respect for them.
There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly.
Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send.
As for the others, I expect you to rock their world.
Wipe them out if that is what they choose.
But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham.
Tread lightly there.
You will see things that no man could pay to see
-- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis.
You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.
Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country.
Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day.
Allow them dignity in death.
Bury them properly and mark their graves.
It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive.
But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign.
We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back.
There will be no time for sorrow.
The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction.
There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam.
He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done.
As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
It is a big step to take another human life.
It is not to be done lightly.
I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts.
I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.
If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.
The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer.
You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history.
We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
(On Saddam's chemical and biological weapons.)
It is not a question of if, it's a question of when.
We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself.
If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.
Our business now is north.
Copyright Tim Collins, 2003We will not fly our flags in their country
We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own.
Show respect for them.
There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly.
Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send.
As for the others, I expect you to rock their world.
Wipe them out if that is what they choose.
But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham.
Tread lightly there.
You will see things that no man could pay to see
-- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis.
You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.
Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country.
Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day.
Allow them dignity in death.
Bury them properly and mark their graves.
It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive.
But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign.
We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back.
There will be no time for sorrow.
The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction.
There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam.
He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done.
As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
It is a big step to take another human life.
It is not to be done lightly.
I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts.
I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.
If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.
The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer.
You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history.
We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
(On Saddam's chemical and biological weapons.)
It is not a question of if, it's a question of when.
We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself.
If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.
Our business now is north.
An article in today's New York Times regarding the often impolitic statements of the Marine general now in command there:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/world/20mattis.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Often a bit, shall we say, loose with the lip...
But he is also capable of making more thoughtful statements:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/world/20mattis.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Often a bit, shall we say, loose with the lip...
But he is also capable of making more thoughtful statements:
The first statement is as my mother would say 'common' -not befitting a leader, the second is better.
Well, he is a Marine. We're funny like that. A common expression during Vietnam amongst Marines during the "Hearts and Minds" campaign was "Let us win your hearts and minds, or we'll burn your damned huts down."
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The version I heard was the unofficial motto( so i was told by ex Airborne) of the Nam-era green berets: "Their hearts and minds will follow if you've got'em by the balls".
We have a saying 'engage brain before opening mouth'.
I prefer Tim Collins' speech, made off the cuff. Still we have a tradition of good stirring speeches made before battles, have a look at Queen Elizabeth the First's, 'I may have the body of a frail woman' speech, Nelson's 'England expects' and Churchill's 'We will fight them on the beaches'.
The problem with the type of saying Bill quoted is that it makes them look and sound like thugs, do they want to go down in history as something they aren't? Do they want to be seen as nothing more than illiterate and ignorant killers or would they prefer to have posterity record them as something nobler defending their country?
I prefer Tim Collins' speech, made off the cuff. Still we have a tradition of good stirring speeches made before battles, have a look at Queen Elizabeth the First's, 'I may have the body of a frail woman' speech, Nelson's 'England expects' and Churchill's 'We will fight them on the beaches'.
The problem with the type of saying Bill quoted is that it makes them look and sound like thugs, do they want to go down in history as something they aren't? Do they want to be seen as nothing more than illiterate and ignorant killers or would they prefer to have posterity record them as something nobler defending their country?
I don't know. Patton said some similar things, and his posterity looks pretty good to me.
It's a cultural thing probably. We don't mind if our general's language gets a little rough on occassion.
I think Patton's reputation may only look that way to Americans, to others we see his behaviour as, shall we say, questionable. He's not to our taste certainly, it's not the language it's the sentiments displayed, we like the play hard but fair thing going on, we don't like the bully boy attitude. It's the 'iron fist in the velvet glove' take on things or the 'talk quietly but carry a big stick' attitude. We like our officers to be gentlemen, hard fighting but always gentlemen. As Tim Collins said you don't let down the side.
We're more into 'kick *** and take names' than wine and roses. Thugs? Maybe, but our thugs. The good guys. We like tough guys with lots of attitude who actually walk it like they talk it. All of our heroes have also been regular blasphemers. The Founding Fathers used a lot of flowery speech, but let's face it, they were basically English until they got a wild hair up their backsides and decided to pop a cap. And ol' Ben Franklin was known for a pithy quote, but I hear he liked to get a leg over. Good guy.
We have always reveled in our inappropriateness. Lou Diamond, a Marine Corps hero, fought Japanese forces hand-to-hand at the age of 50 in the Island-Hopping Campaign. His wore a goatee in blatant disregard for the rules of grooming, he refused to replace his jungle-rotted uniform to even receive a medal; he said "If it's good enough to kill Japs in, it's good enough to be decorated in." These guys are our heroes, and rightly so. Blasphemers, swaggering tough guys, mean as hell, and on our side. As long as they can back up the bravado, we love 'em.
All of our officers are gentlemen by Act of Congress. Says so right on their commissions. With that out of the way, we prefer hard-chargers to lead us; we value fair play too, but only after we've knocked the other guy's **** in the dirt and we're helping him up again. One of the few Texan sayings I appreciate is, "Mess with the bull, you get the horns."
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Well isn't this the way it always is between a parent and young adult kid? 
Well isn't this the way it always is between a parent and young adult kid?
Now that's the truth of it!!
