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I wrote: Timo S responded: I find these kinds of discussions most intriguing. Let’s review one at a time. Pinan Origins Chozo Nakama was born in 1899 and would have been around 16 at the time of Itosu’s death. Bishop spoke with Nakama prior to his passing in 1982 and recorded...

Flying Crane wrote: Over many centuries, fighting arts in Okinawa have evolved in their own distinctive way. I am not sure how helpful it is to try to shoehorn these complex systems into limiting categories. When we talk of Okinawan systems, we generally include the hojo undo body conditioning...

Never-A-Reflection wrote: I suppose there is no chance that you could point to any of these movements being executed this way on-line, or could videotape yourself with a partner, or in the absence of a partner, walking through the movements, in air, describing the location of the attacker...

Is a post I commented on a refrain commonly heard at Oyata seminars: To which K Man wrote: I just find it odd that you think this is the only correct answer. Please recall that in these instances, if the student did not have an answer, often none were forthcoming. Some would consider that...

K Man, I don't mean offense in breaking down your statements so I can confirm what exactly you have meant in some of your posts. You called a number of kata I posted "Kihon" and not "Advanced". When I asked for video of advanced kata you didn't respond. When another poster stated that...

Never_A_Reflection wrote: Above, I have provided over 25 instances of longer sequences in kata. I would be most grateful if, in support of your statement above, you could provide links to some examples, on line, for myself, and others to evaluate. I have argued on a related thread, that I am...

Below are links of kata I posted that K Man stated were kihon, they were not advanced kata. So I began this thread to ask for information about Kihon and Advanced kata, and specifically to request from K Man links to a kata shown in kihon format and advanced format. In response to my request...

On another thread, I claimed that that longer forward-moving sequences in kata don't appear to be all that well suited for empty hand fighting, as the attacker is only arm's length away. I posted the following links to a range of kata across a number of systems. I am interested in seeing the...

In support of my contention that longer forward sequences in kata don't appear to be all that well suited for empty hand fighting, I posted the following links to a range of kata across a number of systems. I am interested in seeing the evidence that these sequences do map well to empty hand...

K-Man wrote: I put together this graphic in powerpoint and exported to jpg. Over the next couple of weeks I will redo it in Visio where I can do it better. I will have an additional document that lists the sources for each connection. I believe this information is not consistent with your...

Punisher wrote: There are scores of hours of video online of aikido usage, jujutsu usage, kali usage, boxing usage, actual video of the way the movements are used with two persons. And there are scores of examples of kata application online. From all that available bunkai online for karate...

Thanks for providing this link. I would like to make a number of observations. Kudos to Mr. Abernethy for his efforts to provide useful applications. I do not want this to appear like I am in any way minimizing the potential use of this concept he is teaching while I dissect it. First, I...

I wrote: Flying Crane wrote: Thank you for pointing out that I was unclear in my description. I had some of the information that needed to be considered (in bold) but my wording was incomplete. Let me try again: These long Chinese spears cannot be held at one end and be effectively...

rframe wrote: One can slice and dice the kata into very short sequences, a block, a strike. Or one can slice and dice the kata into longer sequences. If a kata goes in eight directions, then there could be eight sequences. It's easy for just about anyone to pick a random block out of the...

Ninniku Dojo wrote: I don't know if you are referencing something that I wrote, but since I am the only one arguing that the historical evidence suggests we consider that kata might have been designed for military purposes, I would imagine you are. Every two years in the 18th and 19th...

I wrote: Makalakumu wrote: My apologies for being less than clear. I am interested in karateka who would like to explore the meanings of movements that they are frustrated by. I am interested in helping those who have found the bunkai they have been shown, in class, and elsewhere, to be...

I wrote: The Boar Man wrote: I do take issue with your first statement. I have not made sweeping statements "those that do these things are wrong." I maintain that some kata movements do lend themselves quite well to good fighting techniques. I have stated that the secret origins of kata...

Makalakumu wrote: I have stated that it is my contention that movements in kata should be explored to determine if they had a military heritage. I specifically described the military challenge that faced the Okinawans, the protection of their tribute vessels from hostile attacks. That...

K-Man wrote: Anyone here can believe anything they like. I provided references from numerous sources regarding the role of Chinese military providing instruction to Okinawans. I think it would be helpful to me to have you specifically state which sources you disagree with. I have presented...

Makalakumu wrote: There are a variety of ways to approach this issue. Let me try what I think might be the most fruitful way to share information on this topic. 1. Can you think of any examples of movements in the kata that seem to defy use for empty hand fighting. 2. If you...

The Boar Man wrote: I need to make something very clear here. I am not concerned with "styles" or methods, or teachers, or cross-training, or influences. I am only concerned with kata, those of likely Chinese origin. I have not been discussing the "ti" that Okinawans used in fighting, nor in...

The Boar Man wrote: I have been writing about the challenges of military combat at sea, and therefore I am talking about weapon-to-weapon combat. The fact that you may have never heard about a kata developed specifically for warfare on a boat does not mean they did not exist. Kata provide a...

Earlier, I wrote: The Boar Man wrote: We have an historical record on which to draw. It's meagher, but it exists. we can draw conclusions on it. First, the following authorities all born in the late 1800s, credit toudi (Chinese hand) as having been taught by Chinese. Funakoshi, Motobu...

The Boar Man wrote: Funakoshi recorded the names of Chinese Military attaches and Okinawans that studied under them in his 1914 Newspaper article, his 1925 text Karate Jutsu and his 1935 text Karate-Do Kyohan.

Mz1 wrote: Please give an example, any example, of soldiers on the battlefield trying to kill with their "bare hands". Fighting is not fighting. You can say it again, and again, but it doesn't make it true. There are all sorts of fighting from gentle pushes to nuclear strikes, and everything...

Chinto wrote: I'd like to see that military study. I'm not buying it that weapons were not involved. In the military H2H is not empty hand, it is still with weapons. The is virtually zero likelihood that two soldiers on the battlefield, one from each side, BOTH not having any weapon. Military...

Chinto wrote: I am indeed intrigued when I read posters discuss the "battlefield" heritage of Okinawan karate. However the conventional wisdom is that karate was designed for empty-hand self-defense, one defender against a single unarmed attacker. Battlefield combat has always and will always...

I am continually perplexed why anyone would equate "battlefield" fighting with anything other than weapons fighting. When, in the history of mankind have men gone into battle unarmed? There are those who might argue that there are times when empty hand techniques are useful when one "drops" a...