Zero Tolerance for Self-Defense

[theletch1]

Well, back it up 10 years further, Arni, and your arrive at my day. In those days, self-defense was self-defense. And if you just had a beef with another *fighter*, you took it off campus at lunch or after school, and the last man standing was probably the winner (although I saw one guy with both eyes streaming so much blood he couldn't see, so it's a toss up who won that one). BTW, we never had a single case of a friend stepping in till it was over, and that was only to help someone make it to his car or back to campus.

Makes you kind of miss the old days.

As long as we're doing the "back in my day" thing I'll chime in.:uhyeah: When I was in high school you could still carry a knife in your pocket or on your hip... to class. You could still carry your hunting rifle to school in your gun rack on your pick-up. We had fights but no-one ever drew a weapon. It was just a point of honor, I guess, to be able to take care of business with your bare hands. Back then the teachers and principals did their investigations, figured out what happened and took it from there. Maybe knowing that someone actually gave enough of a damn to figure out who did what was something of a deterent to pushing things too far.

 

[kidswarrior]

As long as we're doing the "back in my day" thing I'll chime in.:uhyeah: When I was in high school you could still carry a knife in your pocket or on your hip... to class. You could still carry your hunting rifle to school in your gun rack on your pick-up. We had fights but no-one ever drew a weapon. It was just a point of honor, I guess, to be able to take care of business with your bare hands. Back then the teachers and principals did their investigations, figured out what happened and took it from there. Maybe knowing that someone actually gave enough of a damn to figure out who did what was something of a deterent to pushing things too far.

Yep, I think you're right.

 

[shesulsa]

I was ganged up on by two cheerleaders in 1980. Apparently it was fine that they got to call me all sorts of names, bully me endlessly right up to the punch in the face ... and when they did so, I was apparently supposed to wait until the attack was over and then report them to an adult.

Bull ****.

I punched the one who hit me first. Can you say glass contact lenses? Her friend bloodied my nose and ran too fast for a geeky girl holding her nose.

They tried to suspend all three of us for a week. My parents fought hard for me and I listened until the principle turned to me (I'd been quiet the whole time) and commented on my (then) meekness and his surprise at my reaction to the attack. I promptly told him I was kind but I was not stupid and would not fail to at least try to defend myself when attacked regardless of anyone's ridiculous idea that one must allow oneself to be victimized.

My parents threatened to sue the board of education if they did not place on my record that I acted in self-defense. They noted it, I got one day off. The others got a week. Still got to be cheerleaders tho. Politics are great, ain't they? :shrug:

That being the case, I encourage them to immediately go to 1- their parents, and 2- teachers and administrators with this information. If the parent is not sure what to do or unwilling to do anything ( I can't believe when that happens), the next step for either parent or student is to go to administrators and demand that the meeting be put on the record, and bring their own recording devices and, if needed, a legal representative. Once the meeting begins- the student or parent outlines what the problem is and who the problem is with- then asks the simple question, "my safety is in jeopardy, what are you, the responsible adult, going to do about this." If or when the administrator refuses to do anything, the student and/or his parent responds by saying that the administration has been warned of this issue, the threat still exists, and if the student fears for his safety or is actually assaulted, he will defend himself appropriately and there will be no reprisals against him. If the administrator says otherwise or falls back on the 0-tolerance policy, then all records of said meeting will be handed over to local media, the school board, and any city/county/state agencies that govern both the school and child safety.

(emphasis mine)

This practice has been denied in many school districts because of the legal implications. Special education parents used to tape meetings to help their case in getting services for their children and holding schools and districts accountable for their promises. Much money has been lost because of that practice, so I would be careful in advising people to do anything illegal - like recording people without their permission in states where that is illegal ... and I think your state is one of those, fyi. :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

I failed to interject my opinion on zero-tolerance for self-defense but I think it's pretty clear I think it's ridiculous. The ideal of pacifism is wonderful and romantic and perhaps we can all get there someday ... but not without some kind of divine - NOT governmental - intervention.

Violence is not looked upon as okay as a general rule - just look at the reactions to police violence, the tactics used by defense lawyers for rapists, and the long list of women currently in prison for brutally defending themselves from their abusers.

Some people need to wake the hell up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was ganged up on by two cheerleaders in 1980. Apparently it was fine that they got to call me all sorts of names, bully me endlessly right up to the punch in the face ... and when they did so, I was apparently supposed to wait until the attack was over and then report them to an adult.

Bull ****.

I punched the one who hit me first. Can you say glass contact lenses? Her friend bloodied my nose and ran too fast for a geeky girl holding her nose.

They tried to suspend all three of us for a week. My parents fought hard for me and I listened until the principle turned to me (I'd been quiet the whole time) and commented on my (then) meekness and his surprise at my reaction to the attack. I promptly told him I was kind but I was not stupid and would not fail to at least try to defend myself when attacked regardless of anyone's ridiculous idea that one must allow oneself to be victimized.

My parents threatened to sue the board of education if they did not place on my record that I acted in self-defense. They noted it, I got one day off. The others got a week. Still got to be cheerleaders tho. Politics are great, ain't they? :shrug:

OK I'll chime in.

I had 2 kids walk up to me in high school one I knew and did not much like and apparently a much larger friend of his. The larger friend took a really bad swing at me and missed I dropped the guy I knew with a strike to his throat (these were my TKD Days :EG the really big guy saw him fall and ran away and the principal watched the whole thing. He came running over helped the kid up made sure he was ok, even asked him if he needed an ambulance. He gave me 3 days detention let that kid go and never asked anything about the really big guy that swung first and ran away.

But then I was also ban form the School Library of that High School for the "rest of my life" (direct quote form the Librarian) in that school too, High School Justice I guess ...whatever it matters not these days anyways

 

[jks9199]

This practice has been denied in many school districts because of the legal implications. Special education parents used to tape meetings to help their case in getting services for their children and holding schools and districts accountable for their promises. Much money has been lost because of that practice, so I would be careful in advising people to do anything illegal - like recording people without their permission in states where that is illegal ... and I think your state is one of those, fyi. :asian:

If you're going to consider recording, find out what the laws are in your state. For example, Virginia is a one-party consent state. So long as one party consents to the recording, it's NOT illegal. The other party doesn't even have to know about it! But, Maryland is a two-party consent state; both people must (generally) know of and agree to recording. And it gets more complicated...

If you're getting into a situation, like sparring with the school board over your kid's education, get yourself a lawyer with expertise in the appropriate area. You can be sure that the school will have one... And it's amazing how different answers become when you have your own attorney sitting there, or requesting a recording of the meeting.

 

[Empty Hands]

The ideal of pacifism is wonderful and romantic and perhaps we can all get there someday ... but not without some kind of divine - NOT governmental - intervention.

Again, the zero-tolerance policies have nothing to do with pacifism, anti-violence, safety or anything else to do with the children themselves. Their actions have shown that school administrations are quite comfortable with violence. Zero-tolerance policies are designed to protect the school from liability and lawsuits, and nothing more.

 

[wushu2004]

Again, the zero-tolerance policies have nothing to do with pacifism, anti-violence, safety or anything else to do with the children themselves. Their actions have shown that school administrations are quite comfortable with violence. Zero-tolerance policies are designed to protect the school from liability and lawsuits, and nothing more.

Yea but then a parent would most likely go and sue the school board and all parties involved...so what would be the point?

 

[Empty Hands]

Yea but then a parent would most likely go and sue the school board and all parties involved...so what would be the point?

I don't really understand your objection. If the school has done their CYA, I don't see how the school board would then be liable. Their actions are designed to avoid liability, after all.

 

[tellner]

If you're in a two party state you can be upfront. Put the tape recorder right in the middle of the desk with the little red light pointing at the school officials. "This conversation is being recorded. I don't have any trouble with other people knowing what I say here. If you're honest you won't either."

 

[shesulsa]

Heh. Have any of you *tried* this? See, I have. The meetings were promptly cancelled. The Parkrose School District and the Evergreen School District have a strict policy about recording devices at all meetings between staff and parents.

 

[KenpoTex]

if anyone's interested, this thread on WarriorTalk relates an incident involving a daughter of one of the members. She defended herself, the father stood up to the principal...she stayed in school with no penalties.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=32405&highlight=daughter
(you may have to register to read the thread)

 

[tellner]

Shesulsa - my parents actually did this successfully when I was in trouble for exactly that. I don't know if it was the particular school officials, the way they did it or something else. I was fairly young at the time.

 

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa - my parents actually did this successfully when I was in trouble for exactly that. I don't know if it was the particular school officials, the way they did it or something else. I was fairly young at the time.

Yes, my folks recorded our meeting on my fight (other thread) but that was, as you say, a long time ago. This practice was halted not long after I arrived in the PNW (1995).

 

[thardey]

Yes, my folks recorded our meeting on my fight (other thread) but that was, as you say, a long time ago. This practice was halted not long after I arrived in the PNW (1995).

Then what options do they give you? Can you draft an agreement between you and the board and both sign it? How do they record a CYA? Can you get a copy of their records?

(This question is aimed at everybody, BTW.)