Yusul Training in Hapkido

[jezr74]

Is it common for Hapkidoist (is that the term used?) to also have yusul as part of their training?

Some of my classes involves yusul, but was wondering if this is very common? Or is it part and parcel?

 

[Raymond]

I always understood "yusul" to denote a technique that was "soft", "pliable" or "yielding" which put into practice would mean a nonresistant technique or movement of some kind. In that respect, a vast majority of Hapkido is yusul since one of the three key principles to most Hapkido is the principle of nonresistance.

 

[oftheherd1]

Is it common for Hapkidoist (is that the term used?) to also have yusul as part of their training?

Some of my classes involves yusul, but was wondering if this is very common? Or is it part and parcel?

perhaps it would be a good idea to define what you mean by Yusul. In the Hapkido I learned, we used mostly English to describe things, so I may know it by another term.

As to Hapkido student/practitioner/ist/in, I don't think there is anything official, and if there were, what association could show why it ought to be what. I think any of the terms I mentioned would let people know someone was a student/practitioner/ist/in, or whatever. In other words, I don't think there is any one thing it 'has' to be called.

 

[Raymond]

perhaps it would be a good idea to define what you mean by Yusul. In the Hapkido I learned, we used mostly English to describe things, so I may know it by another term.

As to Hapkido student/practitioner/ist/in, I don't think there is anything official, and if there were, what association could show why it ought to be what. I think any of the terms I mentioned would let people know someone was a student/practitioner/ist/in, or whatever. In other words, I don't think there is any one thing it 'has' to be called.

The only thing I would is to NOT add "-ka" to the end as it is a Japanese term (Judoka, Aikidoka etc) and shouldn't be mixed with Korean arts for various reasons (linguistic, political and so on). I've seen a few people do that before.

 

[WaterGal]

When you train yusul, what exactly are you doing? Because as far as I know, that just means something like "soft/flowing technique", which is a principle of Hapkido rather than a specific drill. Is your yusul practice, for example, to practice meshing blocks, orbits, things that like that flow and redirect the opponent's force? Or are you practicing specific hoshinsul techniques that focus on the "yu" principle?

 

[jezr74]

A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.

Maybe it has multiple contexts.

 

[oftheherd1]

Sorry, I am personally still having a difficult time understanding what you are doing that is not just choosing another technique to practice. In the Hapkido I learned, we learned to protect ourselves from grabs, strikes, kicks, neck locks, bear hugs, head locks, and protecting ourselves while sitting or being sat on. Do you do what you are describing as a mass drill, or as a practice of a technique you have learned against one or two opponents? That is sort of what it sounds like. As we spent time learning, we were taught techniques and then practiced (drilled) those techniques until we were proficient in their use.

Essentially we learned to defend ourselves against any type of attack, as I described already; we were taught and practiced against another student until we were proficient. What you are doing may just be the same thing that your teacher has chosen to name for a set of techniques protecting against what he sees as a related set. I don't know.

 

[Raymond]

A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.

Maybe it has multiple contexts.

I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like your instructor wanted to do some form of ground fighting and just picked a Korean term to vaguely apply to it. As someone who separately trains a grappling art, I am glad to see your school practicing it though!

 

[WaterGal]

A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.

Maybe it has multiple contexts.

Oh, okay. We do that regularly as part of our sparring practice, I've just usually heard it referred to as something like "ground sparring" or "ground fighting", rather than "yusul".

 

[Raymond]

After doing some research, Choi called his art "Yoo Sul" when he first began instructing, and Yoo Sul was a Korean pronunciation of Ju jutsu.

This is just me playing detective and investigator now. So, if this is accurate we can make the connection that the instructor here looks at grappling as "jiujitsu" and "jiujitsu" is associated with grappling due to BJJ's popularity (even though there are many many Japanese jiujitsu styles with various levels of emphasis on striking or grappling), and your instructor is placing the term "Yusul" in this relation to grappling which maybe he looks at as being "similar to jiujitsu" to create a very vague and stretching association.

Like a martial arts version of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon".

My Korean isn't very good but I thought the Korean terms for grappling broke down to: Maechigi = throwing and tackling techniques, Sulgi = standing grappling and clinching techniques, and Wasulgi = ground grappling techniques. I've only read this breakdown of terms though in Gongkwon Yusul materials.

 

[jezr74]

I may be spelling it wrong? I've sent a message to my Korean friend to translate what I said. As I've had the discussion with her before and I think she explained it as a form of wrestling\throwing, as it is in English. But I have been known to be wrong.

Aside from the name, we have a night were we can spar with basic protective gear (shin\foot, gloves and mouth guards), using technique, principles, strikes, kicks, take downs and grappling etc, but does not stop your partner from going to work the next day. Different partners prefer different intensities or if you are both only interested in working a certain aspect you might say, only strikes and take downs allowed. So you have the option for a broad range of sparring conditions if your partner agrees.

Or you can just work on take downs and ground skills (no strikes), until I get more skilled I've been preferring to start on the ground, as I don't want to hurt anyone until I get my control in order. One way is starting on the ground with backs together then off you go. It can result in rear naked chokes, arm bars, locks, pinning etc. Also learning how to get out of situations etc.

So it's a more relaxed session as far as drills go, but more intense as far as the activity. With our instructor roaming between the groups giving tips, correcting or jumping in.

Hope that makes sense, well I was wondering if that's common in HKD schools, or is an aspect of some and is mainly just determined by the teacher and possible what they know and were taught?

 

[Raymond]

That is a great way to train and I wish more schools were like yours!

I think that is actually a pretty good way to call it. I could see calling a night you emphasis sparring with throws, strikes and ground fighting "Yoo Sul", using it literally as a translation of "jujutsu", since "jujutsu" is an umbrella term to denote ancient Japanese battlefield arts that could encompass a wide array of techniques (with jujutsu being put behind another word or phrase to denote a certain "style" of jujutsu IE Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu being the Daito Ryu style of Aiki Jujutsu). Much like many Taekwondo schools will have a "Hapkido" night where they might practice things typically associated with Hapkido such as wrist grab escapes, joint locking etc. Maybe your dojang has a "Yoo Su" night where you practice more "jujutsu" style sparring/techniques (even though many things would overlap).

Or I might just be thinking about it too hard. But that actually sounds pretty neat if that is the logic. And if not, I might use that if I ever have my own dojang in the far away future. :supcool:

 

[jezr74]

That is a great way to train and I wish more schools were like yours!

I think that is actually a pretty good way to call it. I could see calling a night you emphasis sparring with throws, strikes and ground fighting "Yoo Sul", using it literally as a translation of "jujutsu", since "jujutsu" is an umbrella term to denote ancient Japanese battlefield arts that could encompass a wide array of techniques (with jujutsu being put behind another word or phrase to denote a certain "style" of jujutsu IE Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu being the Daito Ryu style of Aiki Jujutsu). Much like many Taekwondo schools will have a "Hapkido" night where they might practice things typically associated with Hapkido such as wrist grab escapes, joint locking etc. Maybe your dojang has a "Yoo Su" night where you practice more "jujutsu" style sparring/techniques (even though many things would overlap).

Or I might just be thinking about it too hard. But that actually sounds pretty neat if that is the logic. And if not, I might use that if I ever have my own dojang in the far away future. :supcool:

Jujutsu translates to Yusul, from English to Korean. So most likely as an umbrella term it's the context that's important.

 

[jezr74]

My Korean friend described the word yusul as powerful, and Yoo Sul as super natural, magic.

Not sure where that leaves it.

 

[oftheherd1]

My Korean friend described the word yusul as powerful, and Yoo Sul as super natural, magic.

Not sure where that leaves it.

One needs to know the Korean characters involved. I would have thought it were just two different transliterations.

 

[WaterGal]

After a little research, it's 유술, which translates as "jiujitsu".

I think jezr's Korean friend is pranking them.

 

[Gnarlie]

I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.

Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.

See here: http://taekwondobible.com/tkdbible/comment/ky.html

I'd say it's somewhat analogous to the Ju of Judo (the Korean form is called Yudo) and Jujutsu, although the Korean expression of the principle through Yusul may look and feel different to Jujutsu.

The principle of resistance through acceptance and redirection, rather than direct resistance. That's a rather wide ranging principle that could include anything not involving direct resistance.

 

[jezr74]

After a little research, it's 유술, which translates as "jiujitsu".

I think jezr's Korean friend is pranking them.

I did see that using Google translate, but wasn't sure how it ties from translating from a English translation of Japanese to Korean.

It may well be funny to them. But along with allthe comments, everyone is a little correct so far.

I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.

Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.

See here: Commentary of Philosophical Principles of Taekwondo

I'd say it's somewhat analogous to the Ju of Judo (the Korean form is called Yudo) and Jujutsu, although the Korean expression of the principle through Yusul may look and feel different to Jujutsu.

The principle of resistance through acceptance and redirection, rather than direct resistance. That's a rather wide ranging principle that could include anything not involving direct resistance.

It's starting to make sense, I'm going to see if I can find a native Korean speaker at work tomorrow just to quell my curiosity now. My friend is in S. Korea, so is hard asking questions over Viber.

 

[WaterGal]

I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.

Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.

See here: Commentary of Philosophical Principles of Taekwondo

I'd say it's somewhat analogous to the Ju of Judo (the Korean form is called Yudo) and Jujutsu, although the Korean expression of the principle through Yusul may look and feel different to Jujutsu.

Yeah, I looked at the jujitsu Wikipedia page, and it says:

"Jū" can be translated to mean "gentle, soft, supple, flexible, pliable, or yielding." "Jutsu" can be translated to mean "art" or "technique" and represents manipulating the opponent's force against himself rather than confronting it with one's own force.[SUP][1][/SUP]

So I think they both mean the same thing, even if they may or may not refer to exactly the same thing, if that makes sense. Like how the names "hapkido" and "aikido" have the same meaning, but are fairly different.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yeah, I looked at the jujitsu Wikipedia page, and it says:

So I think they both mean the same thing, even if they may or may not refer to exactly the same thing, if that makes sense. Like how the names "hapkido" and "aikido" have the same meaning, but are fairly different.

Exactly, different expressions of similar concepts. The Korean versions perhaps influenced by some uniquely Korean thought.