Yuk Ro Hyungs

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I thought taekyun only used the feet?

Yes. That is a common misconception. Taekyon actually was more of a sweep and throw art than is popularly taught. Yes, they would kick you (as you can see), but their goal was to put you down...and the best way to do that was to trap your legs or cut them out from under you.

Many have commented about how similar Taekyun is to Capoeria. I would argue that. Capoeria appears to have been an art created out of air and given a false history to support some whim to have an 'African' origin art. Taekyon is well documented historically many hundreds of years before anyone ever even thought of the word 'Capoeria'.

But Taekyon is very much like dance. Should this be any surprize? Go to Okinawa. Their traditional dance is so very close to their traditional fighting. And why should this not be so. Warriors do like to part!!

The Emperor

 

[MBuzzy]

Where can I find more background on Taekyon?

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Turtle Press has an instructional video on Taekyon.

The Emperor

 

[Dillon Hall]

Sorry UpnorthKyosa,

Could I ask one more question??

Are there any good web resources for the Yuk Ro hyungs?? You mentioned the SBKMDK Federation. Could you post a link for them, please??

Tang Soo!

Steve

The link you are looking for is www.soobahkdo.com. I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I am learning the 5th Yung Ro Hyung. The best resource for this is to train in a Soo Bahk Do studio. Go to the website to find a studio near you. The Hyung are not written down except for the first three.
Hope that helps!
Dillon Hall
Sam Dan in SBDMDK

 

[Dillon Hall]

I just received Grandmaster Hwang Kee's Volume 2 of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan and in his desciprtion of Yuk Ro Cho Dan, he describes this as a simultaneous strike to the center of the torso and a kick to the knee.

Although - I must say that I am on UpNorth's side on this one, the chance of actually landing a technique like that one someone and having both be successful and remaining on your feet is slim. I can see myself attempting this and ending up on my butt. So I am more inclined to believe it is more like the throw that UpNorth described.

Actually, the kick can be used for many things. It can be a check, a knee kick, a torso kick, etc. depending on the situation. It is inportant to note that Soo Bahk Do is adaptive and the techniques adapt to fit a situation.
As

 

[Dillon Hall]

i think eventully the us soo bahk do federation is going to tak all of the pyung ahn hyungs out as well as naihanchi hyungs and replace them with chil-sung and yuk-ro and hwa-sun,tae kuk kwan,so rim jang kwan as well as the last series of hyungs that hwang kee created. i forgot the name of those hyungs i'll look them up and get the name of themm for you i think there were 10 of them in the series..

The Soo Bahk Do Federation is not going to get rid of any Hyung. Some are becoming more prominant and used but there are none that are ging to disappear. The Pyung Ahn Hyung almost did, but today they are testing requirments for various levels of Gup and Dan. Just wanted to clarify

 

[Dillon Hall]

I have both volumes of Hwang Kee's work on Tang Soo do, the second volume has the first 3 Yuk ro hyungs in and a brief description of the origin of the hyungs and their introduction in the Moo Duk Kwan syllabus. Are there any other resources for Yuk Ro Sah dan, oh dan and yuk dan???

Regards,

No, unless your instructor has them memorized. Sometimes it is important to know Hyung by memory and not have to refer to a book. This also keeps the hyung within the art so that other arts do not copy the hyung and call them their own.

 

[Dillon Hall]

dosandojang,

Thanks for the reply. I had heard that SBD had relinquished the Japanese/Okinawon Hyungs for the Chil sung and Yuk ro hyungs as created by DJN Hwang.

Would you say that there is a distinct difference between TSD and SBD as the philosophies are entwined via the Moo Duk Kwan??

Regards,

They are very similar in content, but very different in style if you pay close attention. Soo Bahk Do is a changing art that adapts to new scientific discoveries or trying to be more energy efficient yet more effective. Tang Soo Do does not really do this. They like to keep things the way they were years ago and do not evolve. Also, Soo Bahk Do is becoming more Um, Tai Chi like, softer. Not like Tai Chi, but softer. Tang Soo Do is still very hard, uses too much energy for not as much power in general.

 

[Dillon Hall]

So, does anyone know what forms SBD is requireing at the gup level now? I imagine the white and orange belt forms won't change much. But what about green, red, and cho dan? With not Okinawan forms, that takes a big chunk out of the curriculum I learned way back when.

I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do, so I could answer any specific questions. All Hyung required for Cho Dan (and therefore all levels of Gup) are here.
-The three Ki Cho Hyung
-Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, Sam Dan
-The first three Chil Sung Hyung
-Yuk Ro Cho Dan (Du Moon)
-Passai
-Naihanji Cho Dan
Hope this helps

 

[exile]

Can I ask a question of you TSD/SBD folks---hope it's not too off-topic---but is it really the case, as one of the very early posts in this thread indicated, that there is a serious push on the Korean side to eliminate the Pyung-Ahns and gradually purge the art of its formal connection to karate? And if it is, is it just another instance of Korean nationalist reaction to things Japanese (along lines familiar from the history of TKD), or is there something else involved...? I'd very much appreciate any light any of you can shed on this.

 

[Dillon Hall]

Can I ask a question of you TSD/SBD folks---hope it's not too off-topic---but is it really the case, as one of the very early posts in this thread indicated, that there is a serious push on the Korean side to eliminate the Pyung-Ahns and gradually purge the art of its formal connection to karate? And if it is, is it just another instance of Korean nationalist reaction to things Japanese (along lines familiar from the history of TKD), or is there something else involved...? I'd very much appreciate any light any of you can shed on this.

Maybe some arts, but not Soo Bahk Do. We have kept the Pyung Ahn Hyung and they only become more prevelent as time goes on.

 

[exile]

Maybe some arts, but not Soo Bahk Do. We have kept the Pyung Ahn Hyung and they only become more prevelent as time goes on.

OK, then it was TSD that the person I'm thinking of was referring to at the beginning of this thread---thanks much for the info. I think the Pyung Ahns are terrific, wish very much they were still part of TKD. If I ever get to start my own `underground' TKD place, they're definitely going to be big in the curriculum.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I've been doing work recently on Jae Nam (the form that predates the Pyong Ahn series and from where the Pyong Ahn's were derived).

JH

 

[mattkulma]

I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do, so I could answer any specific questions. All Hyung required for Cho Dan (and therefore all levels of Gup) are here.
-The three Ki Cho Hyung
-Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, Sam Dan
-The first three Chil Sung Hyung
-Yuk Ro Cho Dan (Du Moon)
-Passai
-Naihanji Cho Dan
Hope this helps

As far as I know, all 5 Pyung Ahns are required for Cho Dan. At least they where when I tested and most of the 1st gups at my studio know up thru 3 or 4 I think, I admit I have not looked at the requierments in a while.
Soo Bahk!
Matt Kulma

 

[Makalakumu]

They are very similar in content, but very different in style if you pay close attention. Soo Bahk Do is a changing art that adapts to new scientific discoveries or trying to be more energy efficient yet more effective. Tang Soo Do does not really do this. They like to keep things the way they were years ago and do not evolve. Also, Soo Bahk Do is becoming more Um, Tai Chi like, softer. Not like Tai Chi, but softer. Tang Soo Do is still very hard, uses too much energy for not as much power in general.

I think that you may be surprised at the amount of change in TSD. Since there are so many federations and so many teachers outside of any federation, TSD has become a lable for an incredible amount of interpretation of the art.

SBD, on the other hand, is tightly controlled by standardization. Everyone is pretty much required to do the same thing. Now I'm not saying that there are no differences from dojang to dojang, but I can always pick out the standardized Ill Soo Shik, Ho Sin Shul and Hyung anywhere I go.

IMHO, this will kill the evolution of SBD. Standardization is a "top down" phenomenon where a small group of people decide the direction of the change. Standardization effectively cuts off almost all of the creative potential of the federation because it limits the curricular power to think and explore concepts.

The bottom line is this...I am blown away much more often when I walk into a TSD dojang then what I walk into an SBD dojang. Why? I know what to expect with SBD. There is no innovation.

TSD is not like this.

 

[exile]

I've been doing work recently on Jae Nam (the form that predates the Pyong Ahn series and from where the Pyong Ahn's were derived).

JH

I'd thought that the Pyong Ahns were derived from the Pinans...not true?

Do you know of a site that has vids (mpg, it would have to be for me to see it) or descriptions of Jae Nam? Thanks---

 

[rmclain]

Pyung Ahn (Korean language) forms are the Pinan forms are the Heian forms. They are all the same form, just another language's terminology. In English, you might call the form "Safe Defense," but that does not change the form.

What does change over the past 105 years or so, since these forms were created, is the application and interpretation of certain movements in the forms.

What I am curious about is from an earlier post. According to every high-ranking Okinawa karate instructor I've come into contact with the Jae Nam form or series of forms were forgotten long ago. This form or forms combined with Kusanku (Kong Son Kun in Korean schools) formed the movements that Yasutsune Itosu used to create the Pinan series (1-5).

So, I am curious who is claiming to know the Jae Nam form(s) now?

R. McLain

 

[exile]

Pyung Ahn (Korean language) forms are the Pinan forms are the Heian forms. They are all the same form, just another language's terminology. In English, you might call the form "Safe Defense," but that does not change the form.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought. IWishToLearn has ingeniously conflated the Okinawan and Korean forms to `Peian'---wish I'd thought of it---and every reference I've ever seen to the Pyung-Ahns, plus what I've been able to see of their performance (not much---the best site for TKD vids, Master Mac's, is strictly wmv and I'm on Macs completely) supports their lineage as wholesale importation of the Peians. That's why I was so curious about what EoK says about the Jae Nams---I'd never heard of them before this thread started up.

What does change over the past 105 years or so, since these forms were created, is the application and interpretation of certain movements in the forms.

What I am curious about is from an earlier post. According to every high-ranking Okinawa karate instructor I've come into contact with the Jae Nam form or series of forms were forgotten long ago. This form or forms combined with Kusanku (Kong Son Kun in Korean schools) formed the movements that Yasutsune Itosu used to create the Pinan series (1-5).

So, I am curious who is claiming to know the Jae Nam form(s) now?

R. McLain

OK, I get it---I had read that one of the stories about the Peians was that they had been cut up from a single Chinese form by Itosu---it's a controversial theory I know, have heard interesting argument on both sides. The transcription I've seen for the name of the Chinese source form is Chaing-Nan---so I see what's up---just the usual variation in transcription practices. Sorry, EoK---it didn't click in my exhausted brain. Iain Abernethy has a nice guest column on Geoff Thompson's site giving a brief but fairly detailed history of the Peians, and doesn't seem to be taking sides in the debate---uses cautious phrasing e.g. `... it is said that he learned the kata "Chaing-Nan from a Chinese martial artist who was living in the Tomori region' and similarly non-committal constructions. But every source I've ever looked at on the `PyeiAns' says, or simply assumes, that the original form, and even whether or not there really was such a form, is currently unknown. I haven't encountered Kusanku in this context before---there's a nice site devoted to it at http://www.isshinryu.com/kusanku1.htm; there's also a terrific discussion of the relation among Kusanku, Gojushiho, and the Pinans at http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=10&Number=15852703&page=0&fpart=1... wish I had a month off to do nothing but read this stuff.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Nope. Jae Nam (or Channan or Chiang Nan) is sitll out there. Just isn't seen very much. But it is out there. Do a search for Channan and you'll find one book and video is being sold by a fellow in NC.

There are other sources as well. Someone led me to a video file once (I can't remember where it came from ...but I saved it to a disk) and it had a young fellow performing a version of the Channan form.

I've heard there may be a fellow in Florida that knows a version. And, of course, purportedly there are still several people on Okinawa that know the form.

I know lots of folks will want better authentication of the form when they see it. Keep on dreaming. How much authentification did you ever see of the Bal Sae (Bassai) form........or Kong Sang Koon (Ku Shan Kun) for that matter. The reason people don't question these forms as being authentic is because they are so prevalent among the various schools. Channan on the other hand....isn't very well known at all. It isn't the first time I've run across a rare form. Sang Keuk Kwon is a fairly rare form too.

The Emperor

 

[exile]

Nope. Jae Nam (or Channan or Chiang Nan) is sitll out there. Just isn't seen very much. But it is out there. Do a search for Channan and you'll find one book and video is being sold by a fellow in NC.

There are other sources as well. Someone led me to a video file once (I can't remember where it came from ...but I saved it to a disk) and it had a young fellow performing a version of the Channan form.

I've heard there may be a fellow in Florida that knows a version. And, of course, purportedly there are still several people on Okinawa that know the form.

This is what you'd have to figure---if the form really is alive, there would have to be people in Okinawa who would be the sources, eh? I'm wondering---two different performances you refer to---(i) the version on the video you saved to disk, and (ii) the Channan form you refer to, with a book/video devoted to it---do they match up pretty well, enough to make it seem likely they really are from the same orignal kata?

I know lots of folks will want better authentication of the form when they see it. Keep on dreaming. How much authentification did you ever see of the Bal Sae (Bassai) form........or Kong Sang Koon (Ku Shan Kun) for that matter. The reason people don't question these forms as being authentic is because they are so prevalent among the various schools. Channan on the other hand....isn't very well known at all. It isn't the first time I've run across a rare form. Sang Keuk Kwon is a fairly rare form too.

The Emperor

Sang Keuk Kwon is a Korean hyung, I'd guess from the way the name is transcribed... is this correct? I've never even heard of this form... what is its history supposed to be?

And again, thanks for the good info!