Youtube

[MJS]

As you're all well aware, you can pretty much type in any art on youtube, and see a huge selection of clips. Now, some clips I've seen I walked away thinking, "Man, that was some good stuff!" while others I was thinking, "Oh my God....that was beyond words. I just dont know what to say!"

One would think that if someone was going to take the time to put a clip up, that it'd be something of qualilty, not crap. We also know that many times, youtube is what certain people use as a basis, to judge whether an art is good or sucks. I highly doubt that someone that does this, actually looks at every single clip that pops up, but instead, watches a few, and for their opinion.

For me, I would rather see an art live, in person, rather than watch a clip and form an opinion. I just dont see how anyone could view YT, and make an accurate assumption of an art, yet as I said, thousands of people do this.

Many of the clips that we see, depending on the art, are demo clips. A clip shot at a seminar. There are instructional clips, which show a technique or two. So in many cases, we are only seeing 1 side of the art. In other words, I could type in "Bujinkan" and see thousands of clips, showing techniques, but no sparring. So, should I walk away assuming that nobody in the Bujinkan spars?

Now, my focus of this thread, is not to talk about the Bujinkan. I simply used that as an example. What I do want to focus on with this thread, is whether or not you feel that youtube is a reliable source for basing an opinion of an art. Whatever your reasons are, please expand more than just yes or no.

 

[fangjian]

I think it depends on the amount of material available.

If you type in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, you'll find thousands of videos and different types of things. Like isolated techniques, drills, live sparring etc. You can get a pretty good idea of what it's all about.

If you type in Filipino Dumog or Harimau. You may find a few clips. Not enough to really form too much of an opinion.

 

[MJS]

As I said in my OP, I would rather see the art in question live, not via a clip. Even if I did watch a clip, which I do, in addition to doing that, if I saw something that caught my eye, something that I was questioning, etc., I'd research it further than that. I'd come on here, and start a thread in the art specific forum, linking that clip, with the exact spot that caught my eye. If it sparked my curiosity that much, I may consider heading down to a dojo of the art, and inquire further.

As I said, some people think that you can judge it just by YT, because afterall, why would you put up garbage? Wouldn't you put up just quality stuff? But then again, whats quality to me, may be garbage to others, and vice versa. So, I could be looking at a clip thinking, "Man that sucks!" but have a totally different point of view if I spoke with an inst. and had him show me how it worked. I mean after all, watching YT is akin to distance learning....you have nobody to ask questions, nobody to comment, etc., thus why I rate stuff like that, lower on the scale.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I have seen many great iaido clips on Youtube. Some are of teachers I’ve practiced with, some are of my own teacher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTbREq2SSoM practicing. I know there will come a time when I will be grateful to have access to these clips.

On the other front, it seems anyone who owns a sword needs to show the world how cool they are when they make up kata, cut pop bottles and basically use the sword as a baton. Some really nasty stuff out there.

All in all, youtube is a great resource, I’ve used it when I had a question about footwork.

 

[jks9199]

Martial arts clips on YouTube are unreliable. Many good martial artists don't post videos; some prohibit videos at clinics or in training. Many videos are posted without any information as to what the circumstances of the video were; a video of someone instructing a technique may capture an intentional error along the lines of "a lot of people do THIS when they should be doing THAT" -- and all you see is the error, not the context. There's little quality control, both in terms of the material presented and in the media/format/technology.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Learning can come from anywhere...including from those who do not practice any MA...

Never limit your learning from anywhere....and know the difference from good stuffs to nonsence...

Always trust your instincts from youtube videos...and training materials..

Even just one good point? ...is can be a step in the higher directions of your training...

....Pictures...can be a thousand words....videos..just as good...

Aloha, ...anyone wants there picture taken? .....or summit a thousand words...? ...you choice?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think that you have to see an art/system live in person and also feel it by training some in it to get an idea of how they do things. Take BJJ if you have never grappled and based your opinion on watching Youtube while you would come away knowing that they grapple you would not nor probably be able to appreciate how difficult or complex it is. Insert any system in there and you will probably have the same result. It is cool to watch video clips (I absolutely love it) but at the same time being judgemental does you know good. Instead get off your duff and go and experience it live and in person! Then form a good well rounded opinion!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

youtube can be a great resource as long as people realise that a lot of what can be seen should be taken with a grain of salt. I know many people who walk around full of opinions on different martial arts based only on what they've seen on youtube. I take absolutely no notice of the vids that show kartae vs muay thai or kung fu vs tkd etc as these are almost always uploaded by people with an "agenda". We had someone at our club one night ask "how come a tkd student will get killed by a muay thai student?" , the person asking the question had only been training for a couple of months and I asked why he thought that was so , and he told me he had seen it on youtube. He was only a young guy and very immpressionable and for people like that they just dont realise that more research is required than simply typing something into youtube.

 

[Jenna]

I think Youtube is a useful resource and repository of MA information. Yes of course there is a great deal of dross and which needs to be filtered out, still, to find a competent practitioner on Youtube I think is no worse than watching a DVD.

Only I would have to qualify all that and say we can certainly gain opinions of various arts by watching media and whatnot, yet there is NO WAY to gain an ACCURATE picture of an art unless you try it for yourself. And I might go further and say that you cannot even fully appreciate your own art until you are quite proficient in all its aspects.

And so yes I think Youtube is an interesting diversion and good for gaining a vulgarised opinion of any art yet no media when used exclusively can give us an ACCURATE opinion of an art nor can it be a substitute for experiencing that art in a physical way [cept Aikido which we all know is a glorified form of ballet and to which Youtube will verifiably and accurately attest haha..]

 

[Chris Parker]

My preference is not to watch an art live, but to join in and experience it firsthand. I feel this is the only way to get any real understanding of an art. While that is easily possible for the majority of "popular" systems (and I have done just that with arts such as Aikido, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, RBSD courses, and more), it's just not always possible with systems such as Koryu arts (one of my great passions). For arts like this, Youtube can be a great resource for broadening my understanding of these practices.

If I am restricted to just books, either with still pictures, or just the written word, too much is missing, the flow, the movement, the intention and attitude of the individual martial philosophies. Youtube goes a way towards filling that gap in my understanding, and helps me to get a little closer to "feeling" the differences.

Yes, there is some utter drivel out there, but that is where personal discernment comes in. Frankly, if you are unable to see the good in some clips, or the bad in others, then there is little you will get out of viewing on Youtube. So the benefit or detriment of the site is not the clips themselves, but the viewer's ability to recognise what it is that they are viewing.

 

[Jenna]

My preference is not to watch an art live, but to join in and experience it firsthand. I feel this is the only way to get any real understanding of an art. While that is easily possible for the majority of "popular" systems (and I have done just that with arts such as Aikido, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, RBSD courses, and more), it's just not always possible with systems such as Koryu arts (one of my great passions). For arts like this, Youtube can be a great resource for broadening my understanding of these practices.

If I am restricted to just books, either with still pictures, or just the written word, too much is missing, the flow, the movement, the intention and attitude of the individual martial philosophies. Youtube goes a way towards filling that gap in my understanding, and helps me to get a little closer to "feeling" the differences.

Yes, there is some utter drivel out there, but that is where personal discernment comes in. Frankly, if you are unable to see the good in some clips, or the bad in others, then there is little you will get out of viewing on Youtube. So the benefit or detriment of the site is not the clips themselves, but the viewer's ability to recognise what it is that they are viewing.

And so then how do any of us gain any understanding of any art other than our own when there are too many to experience them all in depth?

You would admit yes that Youtube is valuable not least because it can prevent us from relying often wholly upon our terribly misinformed prejudices of other arts?

Janna x

 

[Chris Parker]

I do not just admit, I happily proclaim it! Youtube is sometimes the best source for certain aspects of a physical and movement based system, albeit limited by the offerings that exist (now, if I could come up with a site that I could request particular things to be shown in a way that I want, say, the complete Bokuden Ryu Koshi no Mawari Jujutsu curriculum, not just sections that others have decided to post, that would be great!).

As to how we gain understanding without the availability of a primary source, we simply make the best of what is available to us, and that certainly includes Youtube. But it can never replace firsthand experience, and to that end I have visited as many koryu groups available to me as I can. I am fortunate to have a few close to me, including Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, Toda ha Buko Ryu Naginata, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and a few others, and by getting some firsthand knowledge of these arts it improves my ability to understand what I am watching on Youtube when I see an Embu. That's what I was meaning when I said that it comes down to the viewer, rather than the clip at times.

 

[Jenna]

I do not just admit, I happily proclaim it! Youtube is sometimes the best source for certain aspects of a physical and movement based system, albeit limited by the offerings that exist (now, if I could come up with a site that I could request particular things to be shown in a way that I want, say, the complete Bokuden Ryu Koshi no Mawari Jujutsu curriculum, not just sections that others have decided to post, that would be great!).

As to how we gain understanding without the availability of a primary source, we simply make the best of what is available to us, and that certainly includes Youtube. But it can never replace firsthand experience, and to that end I have visited as many koryu groups available to me as I can. I am fortunate to have a few close to me, including Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, Toda ha Buko Ryu Naginata, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and a few others, and by getting some firsthand knowledge of these arts it improves my ability to understand what I am watching on Youtube when I see an Embu. That's what I was meaning when I said that it comes down to the viewer, rather than the clip at times.

Yes you have called it right we "make the best of what is available to us" and so to decry Youtube as a resource of no worth then that is to invite opinions based once again upon heresay [there being WAY too many other arts to ever get a proper feel for and experience of]. Despite the dross, I think there is sufficient good quality MA on offer on Youtube to provide any viewer with something that might temper their prejudices of other arts besides their own.

To me, the problem with MA on Youtube is that if a person is not inclined to dig deeper then they, quite disturbingly may have their misinformed prejudices affirmed. And as an Aikidoka I am particularly perturbed by what Youtube offers viewers that have no inclination to look beyond.

And so I think if someone is genuinely interested in broadening their knowledge of another art then yes, dig well into Youtube [as you might if you were researching any product or service pre-purchase]. OTOH, if you are looking for ammo to support your claim that Aikido is rubbish and an utter waste of time, then yes, go to Youtube as well only just pick off the first few vids that show up on your search [prolly Steven Seagal or some guy with a ponytail]. Youtube has something for everyone see haha.. Janna x

 

[Chris Parker]

You know J, it's really hard to argue with you when we agree so much!

 

[Sukerkin]

Having seen the sheer tidal wave of ... erm ... substandard iai clips on YouTube (let alone the baton-twirlers who claim to be swordsmen) I am not inclined to accept anything martial arts related on it as being definitive of anything other than the ego of the person posting it.

If I am directed to a specific clip by someone with knowledge in the art then and only then can you be reasonably sure that what you are seeing bears any resemblance to what an art is really like.

So, YouTube as a fun browser engine for things to watch? AYe. As a tool for research? Nay.

 

[Jenna]

Having seen the sheer tidal wave of ... erm ... substandard iai clips on YouTube (let alone the baton-twirlers who claim to be swordsmen) I am not inclined to accept anything martial arts related on it as being definitive of anything other than the ego of the person posting it.

If I am directed to a specific clip by someone with knowledge in the art then and only then can you be reasonably sure that what you are seeing bears any resemblance to what an art is really like.

So, YouTube as a fun browser engine for things to watch? AYe. As a tool for research? Nay.

Dear Suke yes that is a very relevant point you make on being directed to a clip by someone that knows what they are talking on, because where a clip of an art initially seems reasonably proficient, the comments can be so puerile that there is often no way to adequately gauge if we are looking at a good example or a bad one.

Still I would just reference one other thing you said: "I am not inclined to accept anything martial arts related on it as being definitive of anything other than the ego of the person posting it" - and I would suggest that there is no such thing as "definitive" in ANY martial art at ANY level except as you said in the ego of the person doing it. I mean you are 10Dan in your system, directly trained by the progeny of your art's founder. You naturally consider yourself the "definitive" source; the font from which all unadulterated expertise for your art originates. Yet no matter how long I train in your art under your tutilage, I will never do your art as you do it. Only as I apply it to me. Therefore I think there is no definitive of a style, only examplars?? I do not know what you think of that and but I would be interested yes

And oh no sir, I am not saying all clips on Youtube have equal value, some are plainly incompetent, others downright dangerous [though the Star Wars Kid still makes me laugh out haha..]. All I am saying is that I think "definitive" is to me at least a term of absoluteness and I think there is nothing absolute in all MA else we would all be doing the same style in the same way for ever amen

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, "exemplar" is a perfectly acceptable word to define what I was aiming at :tup:. As you say, "Definitive" has connotations that stretch a little beyond mere example.

 

[Jdokan]

I feel that Youtube provides an opportunity for an individual to share their material...I don't use it a tool to judge but simply to see what others are doing out there...Coming from the USSD/Villari chain, I feel it to be very useful to when I can see others from my lineage doing what should be the same material. It offers a different viewpoint on similar forms, etc...
I consider this vehicle to be very informative, useful & at times amusing..

 

[MattJ]

I think that you have to see an art/system live in person and also feel it by training some in it to get an idea of how they do things. Take BJJ if you have never grappled and based your opinion on watching Youtube while you would come away knowing that they grapple you would not nor probably be able to appreciate how difficult or complex it is. Insert any system in there and you will probably have the same result. It is cool to watch video clips (I absolutely love it) but at the same time being judgemental does you know good. Instead get off your duff and go and experience it live and in person! Then form a good well rounded opinion!

Excellent post, couldn't have said it any better. YT is great for opening the door to styles you might never see in person, though.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't understand why anybody even WANTS to post anything on Youtube.