You're Walking Down a Dark Alley - Semi Sucker Punch?

ShortBridge

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... Is this legal? Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there? Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch? Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?

No one commented on the legal question. I have a friend who lectures and has written books on this subject that some of you have likely read. I have somewhat different views and this is fundamentally what I tell my students:

First of all the actual law depends on the country, state, and sometimes even more local jurisdictions. Anyone who really wants to work this out, needs to do so in the place that they live and then remember that when you are traveling it may not exactly apply. Get your information from local experts.

But, let's break this down further:

The Law - Written laws are usually pretty clear. Research them and/or consult with an attorney.

Will you be arrested? - A totally different question. Police on the scene will decide who to arrest. They might take your information and let you go, they might apprehend you and take you in for an hour or over night. They don't only arrest people who they know will be charged, prosecuted, and convicted. Sometimes, they just feel the need to get someone in custody, off the street. Before local marijuana laws changed to the point where they currently are in Washington, a Seattle cop friend explained to me that though it was illegal, personal possession was the city attorney's lowest prosecution priority. Meaning, if they got all their other work done and there was no crime left to be prosecuted that month, they might actually charge and prosecute a personal marijuana possession. Of course that was never the case, so police had no interest in arresting someone and taking both suspect and arresting officer off of the street for an hour only to have them released. BUT, if they felt like they were a danger to themselves or someone else or they were on their way to commit a violent crime, or they wanted to effect a legal search, they could use the dime bag to put them in jail for the night and avoid something worse. It was against "the law" and it is a valid arrest, though charges will be dropped. Point is, police on the scene get to decide who to arrest and who to let go. Whether or not you are arrested or spend a night in jail is a different question than were you justified?

Will you be charged/prosecuted? - On one level I don't believe that law enforcement institutions are inherently corrupt, as Davy indicated. But, they do have their problems and some are worse than others. Putting that aside, the city/district attorney will decide afterward, whether or not you were arrested, whether to charge you. This could be based on a variety of things, virtually none of which are within your control at this point. If you punch one guy in the face, he may shake it off, take you down and beat you stupid. Same punch, different guy, he might hit his head on the dark alley and die. Maybe he had a medical problem and would have died that night anyway, maybe it was a freak accident, it happens. Don't throw the punch if you aren't prepared to deal with whatever the result ends up being. Prosecutors have careers just like the rest of us and their win/loss record is essential to them. They chose cases that they think they can win and tend not to pursue cases where they doubt it. That has nothing to do with "the law" or "what's legal", but it's almost the more relevant question, right up there with "what else is on their plate right now?"

Will you be convicted? - This is really what I think most people mean when they ask about the law. It's really a different question, though. How good is the prosecutor? How good is your attorney? How much can you afford to spend on your defense and how long can you be tied up with the process? How much/little did you help them build their case after the fact? How sympathetic is the victim? (no way for you to know in the alley) Your race might be a factor. The person who you hurt's race might be a factor. The judge might be a factor. The jury will be a factor. For these reasons, most cases settle. It becomes a crap shoot that most accused people are uncomfortable with. None of this has very much to do with the actual law. Whatever the law is in your area, you might be arrested, you might be prosecuted, you might be convicted. There are laws everywhere about one person using violence against another person. When they apply to an incident involves a lot of human decision making. What you should be concerned with is "will it result in litigation?"

I actually think that "law abiding" citizens working out ahead of time when they can legally justify violence against another person creates a lot of newsworthy stories of tragedy. I won't cite any because we'll divide up into camps and start calling each other names. But, if I have a student or someone who wants to be a student who I suspect is thinking this way, we sort it out or I don't teach them.

Personally, I don't want to hurt anyone. I am committed to my personal safety. That means making good choices and being prepared to use my training to survive an assault. I trust myself and my judgement knowing that it can't be perfect and people do make mistakes, sometimes fatal ones. If I have really good situational awareness, avoid problems and am good as de-escallation (which I am) and am not too proud to run to safety if that's my best option, then I'm only going to resort to physical self defense because I had to. At that point, I have to survive the next 2 minutes and I can't be thinking about my legal defense until its over.

Complicated, cascading legal checklists to run down in a figurative dark alley with shady figures approaching you will prevent you from acting in your own best interest.*

*I'm not an attorney.
**The opinions of this poster are for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered legal advice.
***Stay in school, don't do drugs.
 
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Buka

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I believe the initial premise is flawed. It could just as easily have read "You enter a biker bar dressed as a mime wearing chaps"

Which, of course, you know you shouldn't be doing. You know, unless you happen to be into that sort of thing.

Just like you shouldn't be walking down no dark alley that you are not familiar with at night. There be boogie men down dark alleys.

Now, what the hell did I do with them chaps?
 
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JR 137

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Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...

You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am. Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie. You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times). A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.

His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.

Whatta ya do? You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...

You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am. Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie. You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times). A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.

His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.

Whatta ya do? You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.
Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.
 

JR 137

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Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.
There’s no doubt in your mind it’s a gun, and he’s pulling it out, if that changes anything.
 

ShortBridge

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Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.

Actually, according to Rory Miller, running might be your best option. I don't have the sited study here, but distance made the biggest difference between surviving and being shot dead. The second biggest factor was cover, so run fast, away from the shooter toward cover. Don't zig zag, go for distance and cover. As I remember it:

1) A person brandishing a gun may not be intending to fire the gun, don't stick around and wait for instructions, be gone like a jack rabbit.
2) Accuracy under pressure, in the dark is harder than most people think and every foot of distance between you and the gun reduces the likelihood of a fatal shot.
3) Non-fatal gun shots are more common than you realize, even if you get hit, keep moving away from the shooter.

All of things things (according to a study cited in "Meditations on Violence") increase your chances of surviving a gunshot.


Certainly there are also fight options. I'll mostly let other people fall for the trick of talking about how they would use their training to disarm and defeat someone, but system agnostic. Speed, timing, range, control, and inflict maximum, overwhelming, unrelenting damage.


I don't know which of the two is a better bet. Depends on a lot of things. In either scenario, time and space are major factors. Frankly, I know what "you got a light?" means off of Fordham Road at 2am and I hope that I would have been working this out and moving to action before I saw the gun, but you never know until you are there, no matter how much training you've done.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Actually, according to Rory Miller, running might be your best option. I don't have the sited study here, but distance made the biggest difference between surviving and being shot dead. The second biggest factor was cover, so run fast, away from the shooter toward cover. Don't zig zag, go for distance and cover. As I remember it:

1) A person brandishing a gun may not be intending to fire the gun, don't stick around and wait for instructions, be gone like a jack rabbit.
2) Accuracy under pressure in the dark is harder than most people think and every foot of distance between you and the gun reduces the likelihood of a fatal shot.
3) Non-fatal gun shots are more common than you realize, even if you get hit, keep moving away from the shooter.

All of things things (according to a study cited in "Meditations on Violence") increase your chances of surviving a gunshot.


Certainly there are also fight options. I'll mostly let other people fall for the trick of talking about how they would use their training to disarm and defeat someone, but system agnostic. Speed, timing, range, control, and inflict maximum, overwhelming, unrelenting damage.


I don't know which of the two is a better bet. Depends on a lot of things. In either scenario, time and space are major factors. Frankly, I know what "you got a light?" means off of Fordham Road at 2am and I hope that I would have been working this out and moving to action before I saw the gun, but you never know until you are there, no matter how much training you've done.
Distance would make a difference. But thats assuming that the person shot at you. My goal would be to try to get the guy not have a reason to shoot me. I would have to see that study though, could change my view since its based more on personal logic than statistics.
 

ShortBridge

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Distance would make a difference. But thats assuming that the person shot at you. My goal would be to try to get the guy not have a reason to shoot me. I would have to see that study though, could change my view since its based more on personal logic than statistics.

I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.

But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.

The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.

What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.

The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.

Fight or flight?

Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.

If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well? ;)

When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.

These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.
 

JR 137

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I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.

But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.

The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.

What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.

The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.

Fight or flight?

Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.

If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well? ;)

When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.

These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.
Sorry, but it’s not a fictional character nor scenario. Maybe stereotypical, but that doesn’t make it fictional.

It happened to me. I’ll give specifics when I’ve got a few more minutes.
 

ShortBridge

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Sorry, but it’s not a fictional character nor scenario. Maybe stereotypical, but that doesn’t make it fictional.

It happened to me. I’ll give specifics when I’ve got a few more minutes.

Okay, I meant no offense and I don't doubt you. These things do happen. My answers above are still my answers, but I'll be interested to hear how things really played out.

Though...I sort of know the ending. Like I tell my son "you know there's a Spiderman 3, so you don't have to worry about him dying in this movie."
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.

But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.

The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.

What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.

The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.

Fight or flight?

Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.

If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well? ;)

When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.

These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.
Read through this, but going to read through it a few times. My library has an extensive database so I'll look through there for the book.

As for him doing it before, my assumption (again based on my own internal logic), would be that he has succeeded at what he's doing before, and if he's smart he doesn't want to leave a trail of bodies, here or elsewhere. So most likely if he succeeds at what he's doing I will be alive (from what I've heard the most likely thing is a mugging in this situation). But if I run, he may choose it's not worth the risk, or he may panic that I'm going to get the cops or something similar, shoot and leave.

Now if I'm not alone, if I have my fiancee or my parents with me, chances are I most likely would engage while instructing them to leave.
 

ShortBridge

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So, we're arriving at different conclusions on your 2nd paragraph and that's cool. I'm open, if it's just my wallet, it's not worth dying for, but if it's not, at some point, I'm going to have to abruptly and shockingly act, whether that is to engage or bolt. As time passes and we feel each other out, it get's tough to do something unexpected.

We're aligned on your third paragraph. Things change if people you care about and are responsible for are with you.
 

dvcochran

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Doesn't matter his intent. Perceiving someone stepping toward you with raised fists in a "Boxer's Stance" as an imminent threat should be considered a reasonable and justifies you to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
Probably so but you will still get dragged through the legal crap. Better safe than sorry though.
 

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My post was for the OP. I wasn't pointing it out to you. Just thought the OP could use some help in creating an accurate scenario.
Understood. I had just finished a post about an attack and I guess my emotions were a little amped. No harm, no foul.
 

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Okay, I meant no offense and I don't doubt you. These things do happen. My answers above are still my answers, but I'll be interested to hear how things really played out.

Though...I sort of know the ending. Like I tell my son "you know there's a Spiderman 3, so you don't have to worry about him dying in this movie."
No offense taken. And I didn’t think you doubted me.

I was walking down Arthur Ave around 2 am. Walking like I always did/do in that and similar areas - walking quickly, but not fast, just at a pace where I had to be somewhere and knew where I was going. Head up, eyes basically scanning left to right. Not making eye contact with anyone, kind of like looking through people.

A guy is walking down the sidewalk coming in my direction. When he’s within earshot, so to speak, asks me “do you have a light?” That gets me to briefly make eye contact. As I’m saying “I don’t smoke” he’s pulling out a gun. At that point I’m just a little further than an arm’s reach.

Once I saw what he was doing, I instantly stepped in with a right hook to right under his eye. I never hit someone so hard before nor since. He dropped straight down, and I gave him 3 or 4 soccer kicks to the ribs. Then I ran. Faster than I’ve ever ran before.

I think the punch knocked him out cold, but I honestly don’t know. He didn’t move much, and didn’t make any noise.

I honestly didn’t think at all. There wasn’t any time to. The only thought was “sh!t” and I did what I did.

I went over all the what if’s in my head for a long time afterwards...

What did he really want? Probably my wallet, but he didn’t get the chance to say so.
If I gave it to him would he have shot me anyway?
What if he was just a psychopath who was going to shoot me for no reason at all?
What if I didn’t drop him?
What if he shot me after I started running (after I hit him)?
What if I ran instead of hitting him?
What would he have chased me or shot at me?

And on and on. Then the whole what about my wife if I was shot type stuff.

The next day at work, all I could think about was how stupid I was for doing that rather than giving up whatever he wanted. My boss at the time who was more like a friend had the best advice. He said (paraphrasing) “you’re still alive and not injured, so you did the right thing. Forget about the what if’s and think about what actually is - you’re alive and not injured.” Then he laughs and says “and you still have your $10.”

Honestly, it was probably amateur hour. He was too close. If he was any further away, it wouldn’t have gone down that way. I didn’t have time to run. It happened to quickly and he was too close for me to run. The whole situation was what it was, and I’m over it. It was about 12 years ago and hasn’t bother me in a long time. I can look at it pretty objectively now without much emotion.

It sounds stupid, but once I saw him reaching for the gun, it just went into slow motion until I punched him. Same as a car accident I had back in college - I saw the car coming, and I knew there was nothing I could do. It went into slow motion until the car actually hit mine. And the thought was the same - “sh!t.”

Edit: in the spirit of the thread - if you know an attack is coming, striking first is justifiable.
 

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Great outcome.

You'll never know what he intended, but clearly he didn't get it, you inturpted his plan and insured your own safety.

Right thing to do every time? Who knows? Right thing for everyone? Definitely not.

Seems to me that you made the right split second decision under extreme duress, though. That's a big win for you.

Curious if you recall what happened to the gun after he went down. Still in his hand? Loose on the sidewalk? When I think through scerarios, I always contimplate kicking it under a parked car or dropping it in a mailbox or something on my way out, just to remove it from the equation, but that's academic in your story. I make no claims that I would have done better or even as well.

Hopefully this guy is on mooktalk telling his version of this story right now.
 
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