Your thoughts please

[tshadowchaser]

Last night I took two of my students to visit a friend’s dojo. I went to have conversation and to see how things where going with him and his students, and I wanted my students to see what things where like in a different school, while hopefully learning at the same time. As happens sometimes he had an emergency situation at home and was unable to attend class but had his senior black belts run things in his place.

We where in for a surprise because it seems we arrived for the 2nd day of testing for one of the students, and where graciously allowed not only to observe but where honored by being allowed to participate a little. The student being tested must have been about 14 years old, and was testing for his green belt.

After the normal warm up and exercises where completed work out on the heavy bag was done by all, with the testing student having to due twice the number of techniques as everyone else. In other words if we did 3 strikes he did six, or if we did a 5 or 10 second drill he did a 10 -20 second drill. A very short break was the given the class (bath room and/or water if needed).Sparring followed the break with the testing student being required to spar with all of the dojo’s students ( there where 6 or 7 of them) for a given amount of time or in some cases a 3 point sparing match. No stikes where allowed to the front of the face and nothing below the belt unless it was a sweep. One of my students was honored by being allowed to spar with the young man, however we made sure my student knew he was only allowed to use his hands and to control all that he did (there was about a hundred pound difference).

Twice during the nights sparring the testing student got kicked hard enough to knock the wind out of him and was given ample time to recover. In fact after the second time he was given a lot of time, as two of the higher ranks got on the floor and spared for some time. Class was finishing up , due to time, and the testing student was asked if he had time to spar with one reaming higher rank. He said yes and walked to the line. All went well till the last technique which was a sweep by the higher rank. The young testing student went down hard hitting the back of his head on the floor. Yes they where wearing pads and head gear. Sweeps and take downs had been allowed during the evening and this one was not vicious or brutal just fast in its execution.

All three of the black belts as well as myself where beside the young man as soon as he hit the floor, to assist him and to evaluate his condition. As soon as we determined that he could sit up and got him to that position and where starting to as question to determine if he had a concussion ( two of us had checked his eyes already) I heard the young mans father say from behind me “Get away from him. Haven’t you done enough ganging up on him 4 or 5 against one.” The gentleman repeated the statement while at the same time making it evident that he found the whole of the evening brutal and that he wanted none of us touching his son or helping in any way.

Now the point of this whole story is the father had been sitting a few feet from the practice floor the whole evening watching and listening to all that went on. He had ample time and opportunity to say something to someone during the evening if he thought his child was being victimized and singled out. I do understand a parents concern for a hurt child but I also fell that he should have let those present have a chance to determine if the young man had a concussion or worse injury before he had him get to his feet.

I know none of you reading this where there so I have stated the event as best and true as I can. I would like to here your thoughts Not necessarily similar events but rather your thoughts as a parent, a student, an instructor, a school owner.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Hi Sheldon,



I think this dad had an emotional response to his son's being hurt. It is difficult for a parent to sit by and watch something like this happen to their child and feel helpless about it. Perhaps he was feeling growing concerns during the testing but felt uncomfortable expressing it. From the sound of things it was not a brutal "ganging up" test at all and you all did the right things.
People who do not study Martial Arts react differently to situations like this I think. During one of my tests my sisters were watching and wanted to all jump in and gang up on one of my sparring partners for what they thought was excessive force. LOL It made me laugh later on when I found out. As the participant I did not feel that way, but for my sisters they did not see me as a Martial Artist but as their baby sister. They responded to what they perceived as my being hurt in an emotional way. I was challenged and pushed, but I wasn't really hurt. For family members it has a cumulative effect I think. Family members who stay to watch the entire testing (especially if they don't workout themselves) can sometimes see it as overkill - like my gawd he's/she's exhausted why are they still picking on my loved one?


I think it's the nature of the beast and unfortunately for that boy, he may love it but may not be allowed to return. I hope that's not the case. Please let us know how it turns out...



MJ

 

[MJS]

Well, I'll start off by saying that I hope that the student is OK, and that this incident does not hinder him from comtinuing his MA journey.

As for the incident itself...I think that any time sparring is done, especially when a higher/lower rank are sparring, that the match should be productive and not a beating session. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there should be no contact, I'm saying that the contact should be adjusted to the student. I see nothing wrong with picking up the pace, as it certainly keeps one on their toes, but it should IMO, be something that is mutually agreed upon before the match begins. A question that I do have, is what was the level of contact determined by the inst. giving the test? Again, while its good to challenge students, the student should not leave the test feeling like they were there just to get beat on, especially at that age and rank. I also feel that someone should have stepped in much sooner, if there was a doubt in anyones mind that safety was an issue.

As for the father..I agree..he sat there for the entire test, saying nothing, and obviously the last hit his son took was certianly not the first, but yet he sat in silence. Now, I'm not sure about how the school is run, but I do feel that it is very important when a new student joins, for all of the rules to be fully explained, and if they are not understood, they should be explained again, therefore avoiding any problems in the future. Did the father have any idea prior to the test, how the sparring was conducted in this school?

As I said in the beginning, I certainly hope that this incident does not hinder the student from continuing his training. I also feel that this should be addressed with the inst. of the school as well as the parent, so as to avoid any future problems.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Hi Sheldon,



I think this dad had an emotional response to his son's being hurt. It is difficult for a parent to sit by and watch something like this happen to their child and feel helpless about it. Perhaps he was feeling growing concerns during the testing but felt uncomfortable expressing it. From the sound of things it was not a brutal "ganging up" test at all and you all did the right things.

I agree! There was no signs of anyone ganging up on this child, but simply a group of people sparring him individually.

I also have to say again, that something is telling me that the father does not seem to fully understand the way things are done at this school. I'm not saying that its a bad school, but that the inst. needs to make sure that people understand the way things are ran.

Mike

 

[parkerkarate]

As an instructor I believe that putting a blue belt up against these more advanced belts was a very bad idea. Especcialy since the student was a teenager. There is a major weight difference. When I test somebody I let make them do techniques, forms and spar some. But I make sure that I do not over do it. I am not sure how things go on at other schools. But to me this sounded like it was uncalled for not only the sparring, but a 2 day test. Making him do twice as much as anyone else and so on.

 

[OC Kid]

This reinforces my opinion that parents who want there children to learn the art, dont want there children to well learn the art. Part of training is perservereing through pain and other things. So sense parents are paying the bills in the school the instructor in order to stay open has to well water it down a tad.

I feel the instructors and the testing was great. I feel the parent should of stayed out of it and talked to theinstructor after class. Thsi was probably a case where daddy who never shows up to class or take a interest in little Johnny found out little Johnny was testing and little Johnny or Mama put the heat on Dad to show some interest. Dad by not really knowing what was going on reached the wrong conclusion.
Another senario could be Dad wanted little Johnny to be macho and stand up himself....

Either way parents need to trust the instructor. If they dont then find another place to train plain and simple.

 

[tshadowchaser]

All students pushed the young man to find out where his endurance, skill, determination, and ability levels where. The students of his rank or lower did the best the could against him with those of higher rank useing skill and speed to spar against him while keeping their contact to a low to moderate force.

 

[BrandiJo]

i think that the father might have needed to be a bit more informed, but i dont see a problem sparring with higher ranks, at my last testing(green) i had to spar everyone, includeing the the brown belts and blue belts. The people i brought to watch me test got stressed got worried and were concernd about me sparring so many people but after wards i just explained thats how it goes, its part of testing, and something i knew i would have to do. I hope the boys ok and i hope he can keep training, i know that if my mom had been at my testing she mostlikly would have said something ...but we do things differently we didnt have gear on so more chance of injery and stuff

 

[tshadowchaser]

My understanding of the 2 day test was that for some reason the test was not completed on the first day or that it was the 2nd testing because in this school forms and self defence where done on the first day with sparring being done on a 2nd so that the testing student would be somewhat fresh for the sparring.
As for higher ranks testing a student durring sparring I'll ask who has more control when sparring a lower rank or a higher rank.
Anyways there where only a limited number of people there and I don't think any instructor wants to grade sparring on one bout.
It is also my understanding that the student had studied the same style befor with a different instructor, and I wounder if at the other school belts where given with realy no testing done.

 

[Lisa]

I know I am presuming here but Dad probably is not a MAist himself otherwise he would not have reacted the way he did and would understand what was going on a little better. I agree with MJ, he responded emotionally to seeing what he thought was "ganging up on" towards his child.

There are loads of different reasons why he reacted the way he did. Better communication between him and his son as to what will be happening and perhaps better communication between the school and the parent as to what happens during a belt grading are probably in order here.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Having not seen this take place, I can't say whether it was excessive or not... or whether the father's anger was justified or not.

Some things to consider: This youngster is, in any state, a minor child. Regardless of how we may think him to be a young man in the offing and badly in need of a "rite of passage", he is still a child in the eyes of the state and certainly in the eyes of his parents.

This reminds me of an incident here in Indiana about five years back. An instructor in Indy was testing a (small) twelve year old for black belt. As the kid did Sanshin kata, the instructor gave him some really hard shots to the leg and slaps to the abdomen. The kicks to the leg took the kid's foot off the floor.

The parents had been videotaping the event. Later they left the school and used the videotape in court...the tape of course made the news. It horrified the public, and angered me. The instructor in question was justifying his actions by saying our children are soft and need to be "hard." Something about the way he said that creeped me out. Then too, I've met him once. That experience creeped me out, too.

Incidents like you describe above aren't like that, clearly. The instructors were concerned for the boy and this wasn't an intentional abuse situation. Still, one needs to anticipate parental response. Did the Dad know how severe this test could be? Did he know his son was expected to...and likely going to...take shots that hard? Did the boy know this?

Parents sign their kids up for MA thinking they're going to learn how NOT to get hurt. We have to disabuse them of this unrealistic expectation and let them know that their child will, from time to time, get cracked. It goes with the territory, of course. We know that. They do not.

At the same time we have to foster a spirit of trust in those parents...and the kid...and let them know we will not put them at risk of negligent or undue harm. Once that trust is established, we have to maintain it.

Neither does it hurt to take a look at ourselves and our standards and ask if they're in need of modification in certain situations, or perhaps even subject them to total revision. Sometimes the old ways of training and testing are not necessarily the best way, and it serves us and our public to dispense with that which can harm our students and our art.


Regards,


Steve

 

[DarrenJew]

Maybe a chaperone should have been assigned to the visiting family. They could explain things and put their mind at ease during their visit.

 

[terryl965]

1st off I hope the child is ok, now to the point a blue belt should be sparred against at his level he is no match for a blackbelt or a advance belt for he does not have there training yet. if I have a higher student sparr a under belt he can only use that color belt abilities and they need to pull there kick, I mean tap them let them know your there but do not hit them with all there abilities someone will and can be hurt. Remember the father concern was is my son getting picked on and the answer is yes he is at that time, We all have ran through the gauntlet to become more prefetent in are Art form. The father should have been awray of that before the test and it is the responability of the instructor to let him know that.

 

[MJS]

Parents sign their kids up for MA thinking they're going to learn how NOT to get hurt. We have to disabuse them of this unrealistic expectation and let them know that their child will, from time to time, get cracked. It goes with the territory, of course. We know that. They do not.

Good point Steve! People tend to forget that the arts are a contact activity and that there are going to be bumps/bruises, cuts/scrapes, etc. I've had parents come up to me, telling me that they think that an eye gouge or kick to the groin is too violent to be teaching their child. What they fail to realize, is that those moves may just save their childs life. I highly doubt that a child is going to be able to execute an armlock effective enough to ward off an attack, but a kick to the groin, could be the difference between the child surviving an attack or getting kidnapped.

Mike

 

[KenpoTess]

Hey Sheldon

Let me tell you this from a parent's perspective.. When my daughter was 14 and an orange belt. We were at a tourny sponsored by the FLMA (Florida League of Martial Arts) in Clearwater,Fla.. Domini was participating, first she did her sparring bouts.. she was pretty anxious being her first tourny.. she did fine.. she then went over to the Jiu Jitsu ring to be called. I watched as she circled her opponent (who was 18 and much bigger than she), They did very well the first round.. Domini ahead in the score.. the 2nd round.. all was good. The other girl was getting hammered.. I was proud When the bell sounded for round 3.. something went off in the other girl and she slammed Domini with a Knee to the gut.. and drove her down on her back.. then this female palmheeled her in the face.. and shoved her fingers *VERY LONG FINGERNAILS* down my daughters throat~!!! Her other hand around Domini's neck choking her.. The Ref Stopped the fight.. Literally pulling her off Domini.. and I LOST IT~!!!
I was physically Held back as I was going to do some severe damage to that wench.. I saw RED..and Broke free.. My Instructor had to chase me into the ladies room after my daughter and the fiend.. OMG.. I saw the blood streaming from my baby's mouth and That's all I could focus on.. Not the fact that it was a 'No Holds barred' competition.. not the fact that I didn't think my daughter could of gotten free.. I just saw someone hurting my child and I OVER Reacted.. I'm not saying what I did was Wrong or Right.. It just was a Human Reaction. My daughter was fine.. she finished first in the history of FLMA Female Jiu Jitsu competitors and though yeah, it was a dirty fight.. she learned from it.. and came out on top

The Father of the boy.. did the same thing..and even if he had training or not.. He probably would of reacted the same way. The 14 yo boy most likely was exhausted by the end of the testing.. and wanted to stay the course. Leg sweeps can be brutal .. and when you're just trying to keep upright and breathe.. I think it's a bit overboard during sparring higher ranks who are Fresh and ready to rare. just my thoughts

:asian:

~Tess

 

[tshadowchaser]

as I said the father was within a few feet of the testing area and their was at least one black belt within a normal speaking voice range of the father at all times (it just worked out that way). A few times there where a couple of them just standing in that area watching or talking about something to each other.
I have tried to say that in my observation no one was useing techniques that the young man was not useing. He was allowed to do takedowns or anything else as long if ift was a strike it stayed in the controlled area for the sparring, as was everyone else. No higher rank pulled "a fast one" by throwing something at the student he was not useing, In fact I saw mostly front kicks, and round house kicks, with punches being the only hand technique I remember seeing.
Now I do not know if the father had ever been to a testing befor or if what would happen durring the test had ever been talked about. The student had been tested somewhere befor he wasn't a white belt.
If seeing posts on the fathers concern which is good now any thoughts on the not letting the child be examined for injury? To me that could have put the child in more danger that all of the testing, because if the child showed signs of a head injury(concussion) or worse paramedics could have been called befor the child was moved.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I would like to say thanks for makeing this a good disscussion. Some good points of view are being put forth. please keep them comeing

I haven't said it befor but I also wish the young man the best and hope he is ok. I also hope he wants to and is allowed to continue studying. He showed determination and spirt as well as ability and I think he will have a great future in the arts if he continues

 

[DarrenJew]

I personally think that higher ranks should spar begining and lower rank students, especially in testing. The higher ranks have more control and should be able to adjust their level to challenge but not brutalize the child. If you put two people of the same (lower)rank... it may turn into a complete brawl and someone is more likely to get hurt. Staying calm applying technique, the aim of testing student. It is completely different in competition... people of equal rank and knowledge.... the objective is completely different than that of testing.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

now any thoughts on the not letting the child be examined for injury? To me that could have put the child in more danger that all of the testing, because if the child showed signs of a head injury(concussion) or worse paramedics could have been called befor the child was moved.

It seemed from your first post that he did not show signs of concussion, were his pupils fixed and dilated? I think, especially with kids it is always best to check it out anyway though I've sat in the Emergency Room with my own kids a couple of times for hours just in case. Did the instructor in charge offer that (a phone call or to accompany him), or make a suggestion or recommendation to the parent to do so?

Side note ~Tess I agree a parent with or without training only sees their child, and the instinct to protect is strong...

DarrenJew That is a good point about the control of higer belts vs. lower belts.:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

from what I was able to see the eyes where normal and functioning correctly. I only wish we could have asked a few questions to know how his orientation was.
The parent was in no mood to talk to the instructor and I don't think he gave the instructor time to offer. I do know that the other student involved in the incident did go outside and try to talk to the parent and child but I don't know what was said or if he was even able to talk to them


I agree with Tess also as parents we see things as parents and want to protect our children especially after they have got hurt