Young black belts, no problem - young grandmaster...hmm?
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I was going to post this yesterday, but I did not have the thumb drive with me. So here it is:
Tae Sa-Nim 태사 님 (太師): Grandmaster
Kwanjang-nim 관장 님 (館長): training hall owner/ kwan leader.
Sabeom-nim 사범 님 (hanja 師範): same as shihan; chief instructor.
Seonsaeng 선생 (hanja 先生): same as sensei. Lit. one who has gone before.
My apologies for any incongruence in formatting.
Tae Sa-Nim 태사 님 (太師): Grandmaster
Kwanjang-nim 관장 님 (館長): training hall owner/ kwan leader.
Sabeom-nim 사범 님 (hanja 師範): same as shihan; chief instructor.
Seonsaeng 선생 (hanja 先生): same as sensei. Lit. one who has gone before.
My apologies for any incongruence in formatting.
RobinTKD
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I've only just come across this thread, and frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if the TAGB had graded a 26 year old to 8th Dan, and, knowing Dave Oliver, he probably paid a lot of cash for it.
Having said that, that's Lee Hayes, who I know to be a 3rd Dan, and is the only advocate of the TAGB I have any respect for.
Having said that, that's Lee Hayes, who I know to be a 3rd Dan, and is the only advocate of the TAGB I have any respect for.
How about Sambonim? What is the japanese equivalent of that, and what does it mean?
Never heard taesanim being used before. Who goes by that title?
No idea. I have been putting together a martial arts dictionary for my personal use for years. I think that the info came from someone here on MT, but I've been here for four years.
What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?
Some say kwan jang means grandmaster; others say chong kwan jang. those that go with the chong kwan jang definition tend to define kwan jang as master.
mastercole
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Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?
Kwanjang as grandmaster is becoming very common place among you younger generation Korean masters in the USA. To me it's Taekwondo meaning was the head of a Kwan, so it is odd for me to hear or use that term for anyone else.
Kukkiwon has a lapel pin for Grandmasters that states in Hangul "Taekwondo Chaego Kodanja Hae" That matches GM Kyong Myong Lee's Kodanja equals grandmaster statement.
What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?
Kwanjang as grandmaster is becoming very common place among you younger generation Korean masters in the USA. To me it's Taekwondo meaning was the head of a Kwan, so it is odd for me to hear or use that term for anyone else.
Kukkiwon has a lapel pin for Grandmasters that states in Hangul "Taekwondo Chaego Kodanja Hae" That matches GM Kyong Myong Lee's Kodanja equals grandmaster statement.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
some 1st dan calls himself "Master" around me i will be too busy laughing to do much of anything else....
Do you think this response would say more about you, or about them?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
good question.
here is teh deal Dog.
the REALLY ironic part is the same org that wants to call 1st dans "master" is the SAME org that thinks 1 year 1st dans are just fine
in short, this org is destroying any meaning behind it's ranks
now, as to your question, what does it say about me? that i will laugh at a good joke, and a 1st dan calling himself "Master" is a friggin joke
what does it say about them?
well, they may not know any better.
here is teh deal Dog.
the REALLY ironic part is the same org that wants to call 1st dans "master" is the SAME org that thinks 1 year 1st dans are just fine
in short, this org is destroying any meaning behind it's ranks
now, as to your question, what does it say about me? that i will laugh at a good joke, and a 1st dan calling himself "Master" is a friggin joke
what does it say about them?
well, they may not know any better.
I may not be a Korean, but I have been told by more than one person who is that a kwan jang is either the head of the 'kwan' or is the owner of the school. Which means that a fifth dan school owner is the 'kwanjang' but not a grandmaster.
The word doesn't even translate to grand master according to every Korean source that I have consulted.
I'm not being critical; I just don't see the English word 'grandmaster' coming out of the Korean word Kwanjang. Not being Korean and not being fluent in Korean, I certainly don't hold my perspective as being authoritative.
I'm not fluent either, but I think a lot of these discussions arise simply because the words express concepts that cannot be directly or perfectly translated. Thus, our translations are approximations. Close approximations, hopefully, but inexact none the less.
I would say that all it says about him is that he's been told by his seniors that X title is appropriate for Y rank, and follows the teachings he's been given.
My direct instructor is a 3rd Dan. When GM Kim writes to him, he addresses his letters to Master Valdez. That's good enough for me.
Were someone to decide that this is a "friggin joke" simply because it doesn't fall into the conventions they've been taught, would say plenty to me, and none of it really good.
Agreed. I would also say that in a school with multiple masters, the school owner is the headmaster, so I could see that a 'grand' master who is over the other masters in authority does make sense.
mastercole
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Call every black belt "master"
That takes away all the hype and BS that came with reaching 4th Dan, levels the playing field. I mean look at the over inflated view some over inflated 4th Dan's have of their rank.
Then we can really see what a practitioner is made of. It's what a person can do, or could do, and what they have achieved, or will achieve. Of course if they hide in their garage and don't get out in the main stream, then we will never know, will we?????
That takes away all the hype and BS that came with reaching 4th Dan, levels the playing field. I mean look at the over inflated view some over inflated 4th Dan's have of their rank.
Then we can really see what a practitioner is made of. It's what a person can do, or could do, and what they have achieved, or will achieve. Of course if they hide in their garage and don't get out in the main stream, then we will never know, will we?????
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Would it not be simplier to do away with terms like master and grandmaster? Shouldn't teacher and student be sufficient? It would go a long way towards eliminating or preventing many of the things that come up in threads like this.
I don't have any problem with usage of the terms, and I think that it is generally good that the Kukkiwon has formulated the policy as to who gets called what. Having said that, I question whether the way in which they are using the honorific is really the best usage.
Apparently, the policy is for English speaking countries. Again, I think that it is a good idea, given that western culture has a different set of social conventions and honorifics, but I think that using 'master' in the context of the old version of 'mister' reflect a lack of understanding of how the word, 'master' is presently used and how it was used when it was applied as 'mister.'
But since the policy is org specific, it really doesn't matter. Its not any different than the usage of the term 'officer' being applied to policemen, regardless of rank (so far as I know), while in military usage, officer ranks are subdivided between commissioned and non commissioned and are above that of enlisted soldiers. Nobody complains because one is the police and one is the military.
Likewise, a Kukki taekwondo master is anyone from first to fifth dan, while a master in another organization or another art is something different. So, aside from that the usage is not really in line with western usage of the term, it doesn't matter: that is the designated title for ildan through odan. Ego is usually where the issues arise, which makes no real sense, given that most of the people who complain the loudest are of different organizations or of different arts.
Basically, the Kukkiwon has two broad levels of titles: cadet and officer. You have ten levels of cadets and ten levels of officers, and if your school uses the chodan-bo or dan bo, you have an officer in training rank. Officer ranks are divided into upper and lower (high dan and low dan), kind of like commissioned officers and non commissioned officers.
Those officers who take classes and are certified receive an additional designation based on that certification; such as the instructors classes; kind of in the same way that you have the general rank of sargeant, then the specific ranks of drill sargeant, master sargeant, etc.
Titles are used within an organization to define its structure. Without the organization, you really don't need anything beyond master/apprentice, teacher/student, coach/athlete, etc.
Apparently, the policy is for English speaking countries. Again, I think that it is a good idea, given that western culture has a different set of social conventions and honorifics, but I think that using 'master' in the context of the old version of 'mister' reflect a lack of understanding of how the word, 'master' is presently used and how it was used when it was applied as 'mister.'
But since the policy is org specific, it really doesn't matter. Its not any different than the usage of the term 'officer' being applied to policemen, regardless of rank (so far as I know), while in military usage, officer ranks are subdivided between commissioned and non commissioned and are above that of enlisted soldiers. Nobody complains because one is the police and one is the military.
Likewise, a Kukki taekwondo master is anyone from first to fifth dan, while a master in another organization or another art is something different. So, aside from that the usage is not really in line with western usage of the term, it doesn't matter: that is the designated title for ildan through odan. Ego is usually where the issues arise, which makes no real sense, given that most of the people who complain the loudest are of different organizations or of different arts.
Basically, the Kukkiwon has two broad levels of titles: cadet and officer. You have ten levels of cadets and ten levels of officers, and if your school uses the chodan-bo or dan bo, you have an officer in training rank. Officer ranks are divided into upper and lower (high dan and low dan), kind of like commissioned officers and non commissioned officers.
Those officers who take classes and are certified receive an additional designation based on that certification; such as the instructors classes; kind of in the same way that you have the general rank of sargeant, then the specific ranks of drill sargeant, master sargeant, etc.
Titles are used within an organization to define its structure. Without the organization, you really don't need anything beyond master/apprentice, teacher/student, coach/athlete, etc.
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Incidentally, I started a thread a few days ago on the subject of KKW specific ranks and honorifics: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?101310-Kukkiwon-usage-of-honorifics-and-grade
I think the term master is being used as master in the master/mister context. I had an Aunt who would write "master" on christmas and birthday cards, when I was a kid. I think it was the show Family Affair where Mr. French used to address the small boy Jody as "Master Jody".
