you don't need to bash your uke.

[jks9199]

I am just going to jump in here and say this:
beating on the UKE is almost a right of passage in many schools for the black belt to be. He gets to feel what the technique may really feel like when applied ( be it a punch, throw, etc.). In many schools the UKE knows he is going to get hit (or what ever) hard and he is prepared for it.
Heck he may not like it but I can almost bet that when the day comes that he is demonstrating his uke gets the same treatment if he thinks the uke will someday be a teacher.
It may be an old school tradition that is still being passed down today

That pretty much.

One part of receiving a technique in training is understanding how the technique works and how it feels. You can't always get that without a degree of discomfort -- sometimes to guide you in knowing "too far", sometimes because you just can't do it without a fair degree of force. Let me try an example you might get... I can't teach you a leg sweep without doing some degree of dumping your *** on the ground, unless there's a huge disparity in size. Sure, I can sweep my 5 year old and carry him down -- but someone close to my size? I can't do much more than control the crash a bit. It just won't work unless there's some speed and unbalancing, and when you have that -- there's some thump.

That said -- I do agree there's no need to pointlessly bash your training partners. Most of us have probably worked with someone along the way who tended to seek out the least experienced students to train with -- and go out of their way to bash them. Those guys are just bullies. It's funny; they almost never work with someone who might threaten them...

 

[drop bear]

I hope that's not me as I believe I am trying to discuss it.

That depends. your issue seems to be that I am disagreeing with a method of training after you have explained it. Which I can still do if I still disagree.

It is not a real issue. It is not that I have never done a drill in my life. And I doubt that when I get older I am going to enjoy somone slapping the crap out of me while I compliantly hand them feeds.

It all just starts to get a bit precious.

 

[drop bear]

One part of receiving a technique in training is understanding how the technique works and how it feels. You can't always get that without a degree of discomfort -- sometimes to guide you in knowing "too far", sometimes because you just can't do it without a fair degree of force. Let me try an example you might get... I can't teach you a leg sweep without doing some degree of dumping your *** on the ground, unless there's a huge disparity in size. Sure, I can sweep my 5 year old and carry him down -- but someone close to my size? I can't do much more than control the crash a bit. It just won't work unless there's some speed and unbalancing, and when you have that -- there's some thump.

That said -- I do agree there's no need to pointlessly bash your training partners. Most of us have probably worked with someone along the way who tended to seek out the least experienced students to train with -- and go out of their way to bash them. Those guys are just bullies. It's funny; they almost never work with someone who might threaten them...

Yeah a lot of the throws where you catch a kick get like that. And I don't know yeah maybe once. But to deal with it all the time just sucks.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3IQawKo-nEw

This one we would just tell people they will fall down rather than chunk a guy on the deck.

Ironically the biggest culprit in my experience has been wristlocks. Which don't need to be snapped on.

 

[hussaf]

I feel like there's a difference between abiding an Uke and having some spirited technique. I mean, when you are Uke it's kind of implied you are training in a somewhat compliant manner for training purposes...no need to abuse that. I'm a little confused as to how much this discussion is referencing the Krav Maga video. that's more like a demo to promote a self defense course, or class, than typical everyday training.

 

[drop bear]

I feel like there's a difference between abiding an Uke and having some spirited technique. I mean, when you are Uke it's kind of implied you are training in a somewhat compliant manner for training purposes...no need to abuse that. I'm a little confused as to how much this discussion is referencing the Krav Maga video. that's more like a demo to promote a self defense course, or class, than typical everyday training.

But it does happen in class.

Even this video he is just wracking on those locks. Sorta. It almost looks like he is doing the lock a bit wrong to get more speed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i00jr1e8Mhg

How much is acting and how much is grind?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HiR9hr7V0

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am just going to jump in here and say this:
beating on the UKE is almost a right of passage in many schools for the black belt to be. He gets to feel what the technique may really feel like when applied ( be it a punch, throw, etc.). In many schools the UKE knows he is going to get hit (or what ever) hard and he is prepared for it.
Heck he may not like it but I can almost bet that when the day comes that he is demonstrating his uke gets the same treatment if he thinks the uke will someday be a teacher.
It may be an old school tradition that is still being passed down today

Hazing is also an old school tradition that is still being passed down. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

i know what our techniques feel like when they're really applied. Punches, kicks, knees, throws, arm locks, chokes, pins ... I've had all of them done to me, hard, in sparring, drills, and competition. I don't need to have them done full force to me while I'm being a compliant uke and not defending myself. When I'm teaching, I try my best to watch out for the safety of my uke and not use him as a punching bag to show how badass I am.

 

[K-man]

But it does happen in class.

Even this video he is just wracking on those locks. Sorta. It almost looks like he is doing the lock a bit wrong to get more speed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i00jr1e8Mh

Despite the fact that Alain Cohan is an expert, I cringe at what he is doing here. Nothing to do with hurting his partner, which he is not, but a technique that is flawed unless you can move extraordinarily fast. As to wracking on locks. We can apply locks with total softness but the result is the same, it looks as if you are beating up on your partner.

How much is acting and how much is grind?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HiR9hr7V0

Ok this is now getting to the silly stage. In one breath Aikido is being criticised for being woosy then for being too hard. In the Aikido demo you have two advanced practitioners performing standard aikido moves in a realistic way. It is much the same as we train in Aikido and similar techniques are taught in Krav. To my mind neither video shows Uke being abused. In the Aikido clip, Uke is being an excellent partner.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But it does happen in class.

Even this video he is just wracking on those locks. Sorta. It almost looks like he is doing the lock a bit wrong to get more speed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i00jr1e8Mhg

How much is acting and how much is grind?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HiR9hr7V0

1st video: the instructor is going faster than I think is necessary to demonstrate the technique, but I don't think he was anywhere close to really hurting or injuring his training partner. I mostly avoid drilling those particular wrist locks that fast because accidents can happen (and I've got bad wrists so I prefer not having them done on me that fast ). However in this case I think his uke had good enough wrists so he wasn't being unduly abused.

2nd video: I don't think that was instruction or regular training. It looked like a demo with the intention of showing off how fast the instructor could move. The uke in the gun disarm sections was definitely not being hurt. The uke in the handcuffing section might have been having a rough time, but I suspect he was playing it up for the demo.

 

[K-man]

That depends. your issue seems to be that I am disagreeing with a method of training after you have explained it. Which I can still do if I still disagree.

It is not a real issue. It is not that I have never done a drill in my life. And I doubt that when I get older I am going to enjoy somone slapping the crap out of me while I compliantly hand them feeds.

It all just starts to get a bit precious.

Did you actually watch the video?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FGk_urw1_hA

 

[hussaf]

But it does happen in class.

Even this video he is just wracking on those locks. Sorta. It almost looks like he is doing the lock a bit wrong to get more speed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i00jr1e8Mhg

How much is acting and how much is grind?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HiR9hr7V0

yeah that's why I hate showy demos . I mean, I have friends that run schools and I respect them, but they do that showy crap and I just don't like it. Definitely not making a personal judgment, but when you have sleeveless gi tops and "Let the bodies hit the floor" playing in the background while you showingly slam on locks...I just don't like it.

 

[drop bear]

Despite the fact that Alain Cohan is an expert, I cringe at what he is doing here. Nothing to do with hurting his partner, which he is not, but a technique that is flawed unless you can move extraordinarily fast. As to wracking on locks. We can apply locks with total softness but the result is the same, it looks as if you are beating up on your partner.


Ok this is now getting to the silly stage. In one breath Aikido is being criticised for being woosy then for being too hard. In the Aikido demo you have two advanced practitioners performing standard aikido moves in a realistic way. It is much the same as we train in Aikido and similar techniques are taught in Krav. To my mind neither video shows Uke being abused. In the Aikido clip, Uke is being an excellent partner.
:asian:

Woosy as being too hard to a compliant partner? Sorry that seems pretty consistent to the theme that the training is unnecessary and unrealistic.

And if you don't want your style bashed don't set up those arguments. It wasn't about aikido's and kravs woosynes until you made it.

 

[drop bear]

Did you actually watch the video?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FGk_urw1_hA

Bits of it. I don't have twenty minutes of YouTube waffle left in my account. But the training he is talking about is resisted not compliant as far as I understand. And getting caught in a sub by a guy who can do it and so is not wracking it on. And you tapping a bit early because you are humble enough to know when you are caught is a different context.

 

[K-man]

But it does happen in class.

Even this video he is just wracking on those locks. Sorta. It almost looks like he is doing the lock a bit wrong to get more speed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i00jr1e8Mhg

How much is acting and how much is grind?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HiR9hr7V0

Woosy as being too hard to a compliant partner? Sorry that seems pretty consistent to the theme that the training is unnecessary and unrealistic.

And if you don't want your style bashed don't set up those arguments. It wasn't about aikido's and kravs woosynes until you made it.

No wussy as being ineffective, I should have corrected the spelling.

Um, I thought it was you who posted the Krav OP then added the two videos above, one Krav one Aikido. I don't believe I have done anything to warrant style bashing. You were the one complaining about the content.

Bits of it. I don't have twenty minutes of YouTube waffle left in my account. But the training he is talking about is resisted not compliant as far as I understand. And getting caught in a sub by a guy who can do it and so is not wracking it on. And you tapping a bit early because you are humble enough to know when you are caught is a different context.

No. Nothing about that at all. The training they are talking about is the training you can do as you get older. One of the guys they were talking about was John Boyd who was still training up to his death at about 65. The other was their grandfather who was still training into his 90s. As they said, your training changes as you get older or you just give up. I pointed out that my training had changed but you believe yours won't have to, or have you discovered the fountain of youth?

 

[drop bear]

No wussy as being ineffective, I should have corrected the spelling.

Um, I thought it was you who posted the Krav OP then added the two videos above, one Krav one Aikido. I don't believe I have done anything to warrant style bashing. You were the one complaining about the content.

No. Nothing about that at all. The training they are talking about is the training you can do as you get older. One of the guys they were talking about was John Boyd who was still training up to his death at about 65. The other was their grandfather who was still training into his 90s. As they said, your training changes as you get older or you just give up. I pointed out that my training had changed but you believe yours won't have to, or have you discovered the fountain of youth?

Wussy as in training to beat up a compliant partner. And wussy as being trained to be a compliant partner. Is still consistent with that argument. There is nothing hard or clever about standing there and getting beat up on. That is part of my point. You have decided to raise the point that krav and akido are wussy while also being unnecessarily violent. And you are right. That is the argument. If you stand there and I break your arm neither of us have gained any fighting skill from that. It does nothing to harden us.

And yes that is style bashing if you are suggesting those two styles rely on that method but you opened that door I just walked through it.


Drills are not for that. Demos are not for that.

When I hit 90 I am pretty sure that I won't want some guy cranking submissions on me while I stand there as some sort of punching bag.

 

[ballen0351]

Wussy as in training to beat up a compliant partner. And wussy as being trained to be a compliant partner. Is still consistent with that argument. There is nothing hard or clever about standing there and getting beat up on. That is part of my point. You have decided to raise the point that krav and akido are wussy while also being unnecessarily violent. And you are right. That is the argument. If you stand there and I break your arm neither of us have gained any fighting skill from that. It does nothing to harden us.

And yes that is style bashing if you are suggesting those two styles rely on that method but you opened that door I just walked through it.


Drills are not for that. Demos are not for that.

When I hit 90 I am pretty sure that I won't want some guy cranking submissions on me while I stand there as some sort of punching bag.

Man you cry about everything. Your posting demo video after demo video, nobody is hurt, nobodys going to the hospital, nobody is being "beat on". Its all part of the demo to show how a technique works. It makes for a pretty unimpressive demo if everyone goes 1/4 speed. Nobody is being "Violent" its a demo. Perhaps you dont understand the purpose